Author Topic: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi" (Read 16927 times)

Struthio · « **Reply #60 on:** August 19, 2019, 08:15:06 PM »

Quote from: Mithrandylan on August 19, 2019, 03:54:26 PM

.
Yeah, that's how I drew my conclusion. The sense in which he discusses Mat. 28 (wherever it comes up in the book) is a sense of Christ's presence enduring throughout, not "up until" the consummation. For instance in the introduction (page 8 ) he says that Christ's promise is one from which we can draw consolation in the latter days. But one would not draw consolation in living in a time which Christ foretold would be a time of His absence, would one?

1. Thank you for supporting the opinion of St. John Chrysostom and of mine, that the consummation includes "the latter days". I assume that "the latter days" signifies the time of tribulation, or as Berry says "the time of the Antichrist" or "those evil days".

2. You misrepresent Berry. Berry says that the consummation happens after the time of the Antichrist (page number in my previous post).

3. You misrepresent Berry. Berry does not say or imply a presence of Christ in the sense of Mt 28,20 "enduring throughout, not up until the consummation". He does not twist the words of Our Lord like you insinuate.

4. You misrepresent Berry. Berry does not say that we can draw consolation in the latter days. The next best similar thing he says is that the prophecies of St John are a source of consolation.

Berry simply holds the same opinion of all my opponents in this thread so far (excepting Mithrandylan). They see the consummation as a rather short event after the time of tribulation. That's how they come to the conclusion that there will be shepherds even during the great tribulation. Including Berry. Berry predicts sede vacante during the tribulation. Some true bishops are left, but no true pope (page 124). And that's before the consummation.

donkath · « **Reply #61 on:** August 20, 2019, 02:08:41 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn on August 15, 2019, 06:24:06 AM

I didn't get that out of the conclusion.

If there will be shepherds and teachers, i.e. bishops and priests till the end of time, then Home Aloners (the dogmatic ones), are wrong to think there are no priests left because the end of time has not yet come. The Home Aloners who stay home because there is no TLM near them but do indeed go to the True Mass when it is possible for them to go, are correct in doing so.

"If there will be shepherds and teachers, i.e. bishops and priests till the end of time, then Home Aloners (the dogmatic ones), are wrong to think there are no priests left because the end of time has not yet come. The Home Aloners who stay home because there is no TLM near them but do indeed go to the True Mass when it is possible for them to go, are correct in doing so"

How do critics of those who make the decision to be Home Aloners dogmatically assume that HA’s base their decision on whether the end of time has come?

And why bring in the red herring of a matter not pertaining to the topic namely : of HA’s not attending a TLM near them when the most TLM’s are permitted only under an Indult requiring non-criticism of the NO sacriligeous anti-catholic non-Mass ritual?

Many non-HA’s also refuse to attend such TLM ‘Masses’.

donkath · « **Reply #62 on:** August 20, 2019, 02:40:34 AM »

Quote from: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 09:46:11 AM

See verse 16. Our Lord speaks about the Paraclete, and not about shepherds.

No. The meaning of the term "consummation of the world", used by the Vatican Council, is given by Our Lord in Mt 28 and Mt 24 (see the opening post).

You suggest again that the consummation identifies a point in time or a very short event before the return of Our Lord. But this idea is based on nothing but on your own fantasy.

"Our Lord speaks about the Paraclete, and not about shepherds".

If, perchance we are left orphaned of having faithful Bishops and Priests available to everyone without exception- these words reassure us that our faith may not only continue intact but deepen to meet the estraordinary needs of the deprived and starving soul wondering which Bishop/priest to believe when the latter believe differently amongst themselves.

It goes without saying that only under such conditions as exist today where priests and laity disagree with one another (as evidenced on CI) do these words of Our Lord apply because the first priority is the salvation of souls.

DecemRationis · « **Reply #63 on:** August 21, 2019, 07:07:08 AM »

Quote from: Struthio on August 15, 2019, 08:31:46 PM

@forlorn

I have mentioned Daniel 9,27 in the opening post. Since you are stubborn, lazy, and verloren, I look it up and put it right in front of your nose:
Source: drbo.org

to the consummation, and to the end says the prophet.

As you can see: the consummation happens before the end.

It is a good idea to follow our Lord and read Daniel, when we see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.

(The text is about the temple in Jerusalem, destroyed in A.D. 70, not reerected until today.)

Struthio,

Are you familiar with the Septuagint? It has a very interesting translation of Daniel 9:27 - this is from The Apostolic Bible, First Edition (1996), published by The Apostolic Press.

DecemRationis · « **Reply #64 on:** August 21, 2019, 07:16:28 AM »

Quote from: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 07:39:47 AM

No, Stubborn, not true.

I was told that the sedevacantist position seems unlikely, since Pastor aeternus refers to Our Lord's promise not to leave us as orphans. Then I checked what Pastor aeternus really teaches.

It's not "theological gymnastics" to ask what exactly the Council means when saying usque ad consummationem saeculi.

I was quite astonished to find support for home-alonism.

True, I agree. When I say that the consummation has already begun, then that's an observation of mine and not a statement of the Vatican Council. Taking the comments of St. John Chrysostom and the Robber Council as I see it, I come to the conclusion that it has begun.

Prophecy is clear. In the end "the band of the holy people" will be "scattered" (Dan 12,7). The function of the shepherds, and the Pope, is to gather the "holy people", not scatter them. But they will be scattered.

Also, Our Lord himself says: "And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened." (Mt 24,22) Does that sound like we have to expect flourishing parishes, shepherds and a Pope, when Our Lord returns?

Indeed. When the shepherd is struck, the sheep are scattered.

DecemRationis · « **Reply #65 on:** August 21, 2019, 07:54:01 AM »

Another translation of Daniel 9:27 in the Septuagint:

Quote

27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

http://ecmarsh.com/lxx/Daniel/index.htm

Struthio · « **Reply #66 on:** August 22, 2019, 07:59:17 AM »

Quote from: DecemRationis on August 21, 2019, 07:07:08 AM

Are you familiar with the Septuagint?

No, not at all. I don't understand Greek.

Quote from: DecemRationis on August 21, 2019, 07:07:08 AM

It has a very interesting translation of Daniel 9:27

What are your conclusions from the translations you've posted?

Struthio · « **Reply #67 on:** August 22, 2019, 09:07:09 AM »

@Praeter

Concerning your quotes of Leo XIII: Satis Cognitum on the visibility of the Church.

If there are no shepherds during the time of tribulation before the return of Our Lord, then this doesn't mean that the Church has become invisible. Rather, the Church suffers an eclipse. If some can't see a visible object, then this doesn't make the object invisible. Jerome says about the religion of God at the time of the Maccabees that it suffered an eclipse (see St. Jerome, Commentary on Daniel). And Antiochus Epiphanes is a prefiguration of Antichrist.

Quote from: Praeter

Leo XIII also teaches that the Church is to remain visible to the end of time:

Satis Cognitum, LeoXIII: “… the Church is so often called in Holy Writ a body, and even the body of Christ – ‘Now you are the body of Christ’ (I Cor. xii., 27) - and precisely because it is a body is the Church visible: (…) those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden and invisible Church are in grievous and pernicious error: (…)

If there are no shepherds during the time of tribulation before the return of Our Lord, then this doesn't imply that the Church doesn't exist anymore or is not a body anymore.

Quote from: Praeter

[Leo XIII:] The connection and union of both elements [i.e., visible and invisible] is as absolutely necessary to the true Church as the intimate union of the soul and body is to human nature. The Church is not something dead: it is the body of Christ endowed with supernatural life.

If there are no shepherds during the time of tribulation before the return of Our Lord, then the Church isn't necessarily dead. There still are faithful and there still are sanctifying graces by Baptism, Reconciliation (perfect Contrition, Trent, Session 14, Chapter IV), Eucharist (spiritually, see Trent, Session 13, Chapter VIII), and Marriage.

Quote from: Praeter

[Leo XIII:]As Christ, the Head and Exemplar, is not wholly in His visible human nature, which Photinians and Nestorians assert, nor wholly in the invisible divine nature, as the Monophysites hold, but is one, from and in both natures, visible and invisible; so the mystical body of Christ is the true Church, only because its visible parts draw life and power from the supernatural gifts and other things whence spring their very nature and essence. But since the Church is such by divine will and constitution, such it must uniformly remain to the end of time (in aeternitate temporum). If it did not, then it would not have been founded as perpetual, and the end set before it would have been limited to some certain place and to some certain period of time (locorum esset temporumque certo spatio defintlus); both of which are contrary to the truth. The union consequently of visible and invisible elements because it harmonizes with the natural order and by God's will belongs to the very essence of the Church, must necessarily remain so long as the Church itself shall endure.”

There is no problem here. A lack of shepherds during the time of tribulation would not contradict these teachings. The union of visible and invisible elements is not destroyed, if there are no shepherds during the great tribulation.

Conclusion: The teaching of Leo XIII in Satis Cognitum on the visibility of the Church does not imply that the opinion of John Chrysostom has to be rejected. If the consummation of the world starts with the abomination of desolation and lasts through the great tribulation, then the Church is still in the same sense visible, with or without shepherds.

DecemRationis · « **Reply #68 on:** August 22, 2019, 11:13:05 AM »

Quote from: Struthio on August 22, 2019, 07:59:17 AM

No, not at all. I don't understand Greek.

What are your conclusions from the translations you've posted?

Struthio,

The Septuagint supports the view that the "consummation" is a period of time, not a dot, a densely confined instant of time (occurring during hour(s) on a single day) on a timeline.

Most importantly, this is confirmed by the Vulgate, Hebrews 9:26 -

Quote

[26] For then he ought to have suffered often from the beginning of the world: but now once at the end of ages, he hath appeared for the destruction of sin, by the sacrifice of himself.
alioquin oportebat eum frequenter pati ab origine mundi : nunc autem semel in consummatione saeculorum, ad destitutionem peccati, per hostiam suam apparuit.

http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/65009.htm

The "consummation" began and was signaled and triggered by Our Lord's death and crucifixion - John 19:30 ("Consummatum est"). It is the period of the consummation, the end of the Old Covenant age, the destruction of Jerusalem in its "midst," and the judgment on the Temple and people of the Old Covenant. The latter age, the last times - the time of the Catholic Church and the New Covenant.

I agree with you that this pattern of the appearance of the "abomination of desolation" in the Jєωιѕн Temple is mirrored the New Covenant Age in the sense that there will likewise appear an "abomination of desolation" in the New Temple that will signal when "the completion shall be given to the desolation" (Septuagint), which I believe is the whole period of the last age, the last times (see Acts 2:16-20). This is spoken of by St. Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2, where he speak of the great "discessio," the schismatic revolt, and the appearance of the "son of perdition" (cf. the other "son of perdition," the betrayer Judas), in the temple of God - what else is the Temple of God in the New Covenant but the See of Rome? If not Rome, how would we "see" it; no other single church could suffice for the identification. I agree with you generally that this is associated with Vatican II, or Paul VI.

Here is a critical verse, Matthew 24:22 -

Quote

[22] And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened.
Et nisi breviati fuissent dies illi, non fieret salva omnis caro : sed propter electos breviabuntur dies illi.
http://www.drbo.org/drl/chapter/47024.htm

Unless those day are shortened, "no flesh should be saved." I interpret that to mean that there will be at least one living human being, one of the elect, alive in the flesh when Christ returns. The implication of that is staggering. I think it has something to do with the failure of the provision of sacramental grace by the Church for a length of time that will not exceed the lifespan of a human being, so that someone, at least one, will remain on earth when Christ returns who has received that grace from the Church (the valid and licit Eucharist?). This period must be capped or shortened to the lifespan of a human being, otherwise their would be no living person to be saved when Christ returned.

These are tentative thoughts of course. I look forward to discussing further with you.

DR

Struthio · « **Reply #69 on:** August 23, 2019, 09:20:33 AM »

DecemRationis,

yes, in various biblical passages the term consummation (completion, perfection) does signify a procedure, taking a certain amount of time. In John 19,30 the passion of Our Lord is completed, and the old covenant is irreparably broken. And in your other quote (Hebr 9,26) the Apostle even has the consummation of the world (consummatio saeculi) last through the time of the Gentiles, the time of the Church.

Now, the Vatican Council, in Pastor aeternus, saying it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the consummation of the world, obviously does not speak about the consummation of the world in the same sense in which the Apostle does, but rather with respect to a shorter time span close to the end. Following Denzinger/Hünermann the fathers of the Vatican Council refer to the very last words of the Gospel of Matthew Mt 28,20 and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Additionally, in the Olivet Apocalypse as told by Matthew, Our Lord himself says And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come (Mt 24,14). I assume that most would agree, that Pastor aeternus refers to that same consummation of the world, though some say that it doesn't start with the abomination of desolation, but at some later point, maybe not before Judgment Day.

Struthio · « **Reply #70 on:** August 23, 2019, 09:38:34 AM »

Quote from: DecemRationis on August 22, 2019, 11:13:05 AM

Unless those day are shortened, "no flesh should be saved." I interpret that to mean that there will be at least one living human being, one of the elect, alive in the flesh when Christ returns.

Yes, or maybe at least two or three, to make sure the word scattered in Dan 12 makes sense.

DecemRationis · « **Reply #71 on:** August 23, 2019, 10:01:32 AM »

Quote from: Struthio on August 23, 2019, 09:20:33 AM

DecemRationis,

yes, in various biblical passages the term consummation (completion, perfection) does signify a procedure, taking a certain amount of time. In John 19,30 the passion of Our Lord is completed, and the old covenant is irreparably broken. And in your other quote (Hebr 9,26) the Apostle even has the consummation of the world (consummatio saeculi) last through the time of the Gentiles, the time of the Church.

Now, the Vatican Council, in Pastor aeternus, saying it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the consummation of the world, obviously does not speak about the consummation of the world in the same sense in which the Apostle does, but rather with respect to a shorter time span close to the end. Following Denzinger/Hünermann the fathers of the Vatican Council refer to the very last words of the Gospel of Matthew Mt 28,20 and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Additionally, in the Olivet Apocalypse as told by Matthew, Our Lord himself says And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come (Mt 24,14). I assume that most would agree, that Pastor aeternus refers to that same consummation of the world, though some say that it doesn't start with the abomination of desolation, but at some later point, maybe not before Judgment Day.

Struthio,

I'll speak first as to the Biblical references.

Mt 28.20 (rendered "end of the world") is the phrase, "consummationem saeculi," in Latin; Hebrews 9.26 (rendered "end of the ages") is phrase, "consummatione saeculorum," in Latin. Are they not the same phrase in a different verbal form? Does the form render a difference in meaning here? Why does "world" in Mt. 28.20 become "ages" in Hebrews 9.26?

If we are talking about two time periods, one consummation occurred at the Cross (Hebrews 9.26), and one later (Mt. 28.20). This is possible. As I said, the Old Covenant is mirrored in the New and what befell Israel and the Old Temple will befall the New when a similarly apparent and false hierarchy engages in the apostasy/schism called the "discessio" in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Clearly Pastor aeternus is not talking about the consummation referenced in Hebrews 9.26, I agree.

Shall we say there are two, parallel and to a large extent mirrored "consummations" and desolations (or "abominations of desolation")?

There is nothing knew under the sun, and what happened to them (Israel) is an example or model for what is to happen to us (Rom. 15.4, I Cor. 10.11), with the faithful to the Lamb being saved in each case and under each dispensation.

Finally, as to Mt. 24.14 . . . that adds an interesting wrinkle. The Gospel was preached to the "whole world" - all the scattered Jєωs, the Roman empire - before the destruction of Jerusalem - such is one interpretation mentioned in Haydock, for example. In fact, according to Haydock, the interpretation of your man of the Opus Imperfectum, St. John C - see attached.

Hmmm. That - well, all of this - needs some reflection.

DR

forlorn · « **Reply #72 on:** August 23, 2019, 11:42:23 AM »

Quote from: Struthio on August 23, 2019, 09:20:33 AM

Now, the Vatican Council, in Pastor aeternus, saying it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the consummation of the world,

Mt 28,20 and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

If you take Pastor Aeternus to mean that the shepherds and teachers will no longer be there during the consummation, then you would also have to take Mt 28:20 to mean that Christ will no longer be with us during the consummation. Which is a ridiculous position, of course.

Struthio · « **Reply #73 on:** August 23, 2019, 12:52:58 PM »

Quote from: forlorn on August 23, 2019, 11:42:23 AM

If you take Pastor Aeternus to mean that the shepherds and teachers will no longer be there during the consummation, then you would also have to take Mt 28:20 to mean that Christ will no longer be with us during the consummation. Which is a ridiculous position, of course.

Why would you want to call a position ridiculous, which takes Our Lord's words

Quote from: Mt 28,20

[...] behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

to mean what they say?

By quoting "usque ad consummationem saeculi", the Vatican Council authoritatively interprets these words of Our Lord to refer to his presence by means of the shepherds.

Struthio · « **Reply #74 on:** August 23, 2019, 12:57:29 PM »

Quote from: forlorn on August 23, 2019, 11:42:23 AM

If you take Pastor Aeternus to mean that the shepherds and teachers will no longer be there during the consummation, then you would also have to take Mt 28:20 to mean that Christ will no longer be with us during the consummation. Which is a ridiculous position, of course.

Isn't rather the opposing position absurd? A scattered remnant — gathered by shepherds.

Author Topic: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi" (Read 16927 times)

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