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Author Topic: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"  (Read 69075 times)

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@trad123

I don't reject the idea that part of the consummation will be fire of destruction. Augustine says: the consummation (completion, perfection) of the good may include annihilation of evil.

I went through all of the quotes.

Please be so kind, to not only paste quotes, but to explain in which way you think that they show that the great tribulation cannot be part of the consummation.


Here your first one:

Quote
Many things therefore our mind is in haste to learn already and to comprehend, but especially concerning the period of the consummation;

Please explain, what the problem is!

Quote from: St. John Chrysostom, Opus Imperfectum, Homilia xlviij. ex capite xxiv. (col.900-6)
In consummatione enim gentis Judaeae Jerusalem destructa est, quae tamen videbatur esse Jerusalem, non autem vera erat. In consummatione autem mundi Ecclesia aut desolata, aut desolanda est: adhuc tamen illa quae videbatur Ecclesia, non autem quae vera erat, aut est.

Opus imperfectum


In homily XLVIII, speaking about Mt 24,3, where the disciples ask "Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the world?", Chrysostom explains that in the consummation of the Jєωιѕн race Jerusalem was destroyed, and what actually wasn't Jerusalem anymore, was still perceived to be Jerusalem. Analogously in the consummation of the world: The Church will be desolate or about to be made desolate, and what still will be perceived to be the Church will not be the real thing.

Beside the parallelity, notice that both the destruction of physical Jerusalem and the destruction of spiritual Jerusalem are called a consummation. The latter, the consummatio saeculi (Mt 24,3) or consummatio mundi (Chrys).


In The Apocalypse of St. John Fr. E.S. Berry makes regular reference to the consummation of the world, and he always understands Mat. 28 to indicate Christ's presence as pervading not "up until" but through the consummation of the world.  The same language used in Daniel (the desolation remaining in the temple until the consummation of the world) is taken by Berry to indicate that the desolation (i.e., the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD) will continue forever, meaning that the temple will never be rebuilt.  Anyways, in both cases "until the consummation of the world" is not taken the way Struthio takes it.
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It's an interesting argument, but it does not seem to be supported by anything other than private interpretation.

In The Apocalypse of St. John Fr. E.S. Berry [...]

The 1921 book of Berry was mentioned on novusordowatch.org some years ago. A PDF can be downloaded at archive.org:

Rev. E. Sylvester Berry: The Apocalypse of St. John


Fr. E.S. Berry makes regular reference to the consummation of the world, and he always understands Mat. 28 to indicate Christ's presence as pervading not "up until" but through the consummation of the world.

No, not true. He does not "indicate Christ's presence as pervading through the consummation of the world". He does neither contradict Our Lord in Mt 28,20 nor the Vatican Council in Pastor aeternus who both say "even to the consummation of the world". This is easily verified searching for "consummation" in the PDF.

He does though say that the consummation happens after the time of Antichrist (page 193), and that the Apocalypse tells Church history until the consummation of the world (page 64). This is opposed to the view of St. John Chrysostom in the Opus imperfectum.


The same language used in Daniel (the desolation remaining in the temple until the consummation of the world) is taken by Berry to indicate that the desolation (i.e., the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD) will continue forever, meaning that the temple will never be rebuilt.

I agree, the temple will never be rebuilt. And Berry does not crop the quote of Daniel:

Quote from: Rev. E. Sylvester Berry, page 137
the destruction of the temple by the Roman army in 70 A. D. The destruction then wrought shall be final, - it shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.

Note: even to the consummation, and to the end. Worth mentioning that with respect to the Church and the shepherds, the Vatican Council does not add "and to the end" after "to the consummation", neither does Our Lord in Mt 28,20.


It's an interesting argument, but it does not seem to be supported by anything other than private interpretation.

If you had read my posts, you would have known that my opinion on the topic is the opinion of St. John Chrysostom in the Opus imperfectum. I'd recommend to make up leeway.

The 1921 book of Berry was mentioned on novusordowatch.org some years ago. A PDF can be downloaded at archive.org:

Rev. E. Sylvester Berry: The Apocalypse of St. John


No, not true. He does not "indicate Christ's presence as pervading through the consummation of the world". He does neither contradict Our Lord in Mt 28,20 nor the Vatican Council in Pastor aeternus who both say "even to the consummation of the world". This is easily verified searching for "consummation" in the PDF.
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Yeah, that's how I drew my conclusion.  The sense in which he discusses Mat. 28 (wherever it comes up in the book) is a sense of Christ's presence enduring throughout, not "up until" the consummation.  For instance in the introduction (page 8 ) he says that Christ's promise is one from which we can draw consolation in the latter days.  But one would not draw consolation in living in a time which Christ foretold would be a time of His absence, would one?  Again on page 93, he appeals to Mat. 28 as something of an assurance that God will raise up great hierarchs during those days.  
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I did not present Berry as though he settled the case, only as an additional voice that may be added to the discussion, and one which I still maintain hardly agrees with you in any clear sense, and on the contrary seems to disagree with you.