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Author Topic: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"  (Read 69033 times)

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Offline trad123

  • Supporter
To show that I am not forming my opinions out of thin air, ignoring fathers and doctors of the church, here a quote of St. John Chrysostom. His Opus imperfectum can be found there:

http://web.wlu.ca/history/cnighman/page12.html
http://web.wlu.ca/history/cnighman/OpusImperfectum.pdf


Why is it that when I click the 2nd link, the PDF, it shows:

Pseudo-Chrysostomus



And why is it that I am reading this:

https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095611597

Quote
Quick Reference

Many sermons have been falsely ascribed to St John Chrysostom; of special interest are those by representatives of heretical movements from which little else survives: three paschal homilies which have been attributed to Apollinaris of Laodicea; two homilies for the octave of Easter which seem to be Anomoean; and the Opus Imperfectum in Matthaeum, a series of Latin homilies by an Arian bishop of the 5th or 6th century.


Offline trad123

  • Supporter
trad123 has posted the only quote so far, which addresses our question, at what time span or point in time the consummatio will happen.

Why do you ignore every other quote that discusses the consummation? They're just as much against the narrative you're writing about here.

On top of that, you've created a narrative using a text that apparently was written by an Arian heretic, rather than by St. Chrysostom.


@trad123

"Pseudo-Chrysostomus", that's a crime committed by Desiderius Erasmus Roterodamus, friend of Martin Luther, today celebrated as the "father of humanism".

He has been refuted at his own time already, as can be found in Migne.

There indeed have been copies of the text modified by Arians, but these were recognizable.

In modern times they even doubt most old and new testament authors.


Quote
As Thomas Aquinas was approaching Paris, a fellow traveler pointed out the lovely buildings gracing that city. Aquinas was impressed, to be sure, but he sighed and stated that he would rather have the complete Incomplete Commentary on Matthew than to be mayor of Paris itself. Thomas's affection for the work attests its great popularity  ...

Later more on this topic, if necessary.

Why do you ignore every other quote that discusses the consummation? They're just as much against the narrative you're writing about here.

Which one(s) do you deem pertinent to the debate?



On top of that, you've created a narrative using a text that apparently was written by an Arian heretic, rather than by St. Chrysostom.

No, it wasn't. See my previous post.

Offline trad123

  • Supporter
The consummation refers to the end of the world, which will be it's cleansing by fire, and then follows the General Resurrection and the Last Judgement.

Go back and read all the quotes over again on page 3.


https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg663782/#msg663782



St. John Chrysostom

Homily 9 on First Thessalonians

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/230409.htm


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1 Thessalonians 5:1, 2

"But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that anything be written unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night."

Nothing, as it seems, is so curious, and so fondly prone to pry into things obscure and concealed, as the nature of men. And this is wont to happen to it, when the mind is unsettled and in an imperfect state. For the simpler sort of children never cease teasing their nurses, and tutors, and parents, with their frequent questions, in which there is nothing else but "when will this be?" and "when that?" And this comes to pass also from living in indulgence, and having nothing to do. Many things therefore our mind is in haste to learn already and to comprehend, but especially concerning the period of the consummation; and what wonder if we are thus affected, for those holy men, themselves, were most of all affected in the same way? And before the Passion, the Apostles come and say to Christ, "Tell us, when shall these things be, and what shall be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the world?" Matthew 24:23 And after the Passion and the Resurrection from the dead, they said to Him, Tell us, "dost Thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" From Acts 1:6 And they asked Him nothing sooner than this.

(. . .)

For tell me, what would be the advantage? Let us suppose that the end would be after twenty or thirty or a hundred years, what is this to us? Is not the end of his own life the consummation to every individual? Why are you curious, and travailest about the general end? But the case is the same with us in this, as in other things. For as in other things, leaving our own private concerns, we are anxious about things in general, saying, Such an one is a fornicator, such an one an adulterer, that man has robbed, another has been injurious; but no one takes account of what is his own, but each thinks of anything rather than his own private concerns; so here also, each omitting to take thought about his own end, we are anxious to hear about the general dissolution. Now what concern is that of yours? For if you make your own a good end, you will suffer no harm from the other; be it far off, or be it near. This is nothing to us.

(. . .)

Hear Paul saying, "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night." Not the general day only, but that of every individual. For the one resembles the other, is also akin to it. For what the one does collectively, that the other does partially. For the period of consummation took its beginning from Adam, and then is the end of the consummation; since even now one would not err in calling it a consummation. For when ten thousand die every day, and all await That Day, and no one is raised before it, is it not the work of That Day?




St. John Chrysostom

Homily 20 on Matthew

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/200120.htm


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6.

(. . .)


But besides this, the delay itself is not long; nay, for those things are at the doors, and we know not but that even in our own generation all things which concern us may have their accomplishment, and that fearful day may arrive, setting before us the awful and incorruptible tribunal.


Yea, for the more part of the signs are fulfilled, and the gospel moreover has been preached in all parts of the world, and the predictions of wars, and of earthquakes, and of famines, have come to pass, and the interval is not great.But is it that thou dost not see any signs? Why, this self-same thing is a very great sign. For neither did they in Noah's time see any presages of that universal destruction, but in the midst of their playing, eating, marrying, doing all things to which they were used, even so they were overtaken by that fearful judgment.


And they too in Sodom in like manner, living in delight, and suspecting none of what befell them, were consumed by those lightnings, which then came down upon them.Considering then all these things, let us betake ourselves unto the preparation for our departure hence.

For even if the common day of the consummation never overtake us, the end of each one is at the doors, whether he be old or young; and it is not possible for men after they have gone hence, either to buy oil any more, or to obtain pardon by prayers, though he that entreats be Abraham, Luke 16:24 or Noah, or Job, or Daniel. Ezekiel 14:14While then we have opportunity, let us store up for ourselves beforehand much confidence, let us gather oil in abundance, let us remove all into Heaven, that in the fitting time, and when we most need them, we may enjoy all: by the grace and love towards man of our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory, and the might, now and always, and forever and ever. Amen.




St. John Chrysostom

Homily 1 on the Acts of the Apostles

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210101.htm



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What wonder then that He does not signify the day of the final consummation, when this day which was so near He did not choose to reveal? And with good reason; to the end they may be ever wakeful, and in a state of expectation and earnest heed.




St. John Chrysostom

Homily 45 on the Gospel of John

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240145.htm

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John 6:40

(. . .)
"And I will raise him up at the last day." Why does He continually dwell upon the Resurrection? Is it that men may not judge of God's providence by present things alone; that if they enjoy not results here, they become not on that account desponding, but wait for the things that are to come, and that they may not, because their sins are not punished for the present, despise Him, but look for another life.

Now those men gained nothing, but let us take pains to gain by having the Resurrection continually sounded in our ears; and if we desire to be grasping, or to steal, or to do any wrong thing, let us straightway take into our thoughts that Day, let us picture to ourselves the Judgment-seat, for such reflections will check the evil impulse more strongly than any bit. Let us continually say to others, and to ourselves, "There is a resurrection, and a fearful tribunal awaits us."

(. . .)

Perhaps some one will say, When will be the consummation? When will be the Resurrection? See how" long a time has gone by, and nothing of the kind has come to pass?" Yet it shall be, be sure. For those before the flood spoke after this manner, and mocked at Noah, but the flood came and swept away all those unbelievers, but preserved him who believed. And the men of Lot's time expected not that stroke from God, until those lightnings and thunderbolts came down and destroyed them all utterly. Neither in the case of these men, nor of those who lived in the time of Noah, was there any preamble to what was about to happen, but when they were all living daintily, and drinking, and mad with wine, then came these intolerable calamities upon them. So also shall the Resurrection be; not with any preamble, but while we are in the midst of good times.

Wherefore Paul says, "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."




St. John Chrysostom

Homily 20 on the Statues

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/190120.htm

Quote
23.
(. . .)

If you will thus school your own sons, they too will instruct their children in turn, and thus this discipline, reaching even to the consummation and appearing of Christ, will bring all that great reward to those who go to the root of the matter. If your son has learned to say, "Believe me;" he will not be able to go up to the theatre, or to enter a tavern, or to spend his time at dice; for that word, lying upon his mouth instead of a bridle, will make him however unwilling feel shame and blush. But if at any time he should appear in these places, it will quickly compel him to retreat.

Suppose some persons laugh. Do thou on the other hand weep for their transgression! Many also once laughed at Noah while he was preparing the ark; but when the flood came, he laughed at them; or rather, the just man never laughed at them at all, but wept and bewailed!

When therefore you see persons laughing, reflect that those teeth, that grin now, will one day have to sustain that most dreadful wailing and gnashing, and that they will remember this same laugh on That Day while they are grinding and gnashing! Then thou too shall remember this laugh! How did the rich man laugh at Lazarus! But afterwards, when he beheld him in Abraham's bosom, he had nothing left to do but to bewail himself



St. John Chrysostom

Homily 23 on First Corinthians

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/220123.htm

Quote
1 Corinthians 10:115.
"Now all these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."
Again he terrifies them speaking of the "ends," and prepares them to expect things greater than had already taken place. "For that we shall suffer punishment is manifest," says he, "from what has been said, even to those who disbelieve the statements concerning hell-fire; but that the punishment also will be most severe, is evident, from the more numerous blessings which we have enjoyed, and from the things of which those were but figures. Since, if in the gifts one go beyond the other, it is most evident that so it will be in the punishment likewise."
For this cause he both called them types, and said that they were "written for us" and made mention of an "end" that he might remind them of the consummation of all things. For not such will be the penalties then as to admit of a termination and be done away, but the punishment will be eternal; for even as the punishments in this world are ended with the present life, so those in the next continually remain. But when he said, "the ends of the ages," he means nothing else than that the fearful judgment is henceforth near at hand.