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Author Topic: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"  (Read 67801 times)

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I didn't get that out of the conclusion.

If there will be shepherds and teachers, i.e. bishops and priests till the end of time, then [...]


The consummation is a time span, the time span we're living in. There will be shepherds and teachers until that time span, until the beginning of that time span.

Online Stubborn

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The consummation is a time span, the time span we're living in. There will be shepherds and teachers until that time span, until the beginning of that time span.
You quoted V1 as saying: it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the end of time.

The end of time is the end point in time, it is when time stops because time ends and eternity begins for whoever is left on earth, it's when Our Lord comes again, that is the final judgement, that is when all of human history comes to an end, which is when the world ends, but the end of time is not a time span. Up until it's end is a span of time, but time's end is not a span of time - and no one except God knows when that will happen.

Up until that time, there will be priests and bishops is what V1 says, the only way to make it say what you are suggesting it says, is to change what it says, which is what you are doing, you're just taking the long way around.

You are suggesting it really says: it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the beginning of the end of time.

We can toss bible verses back and forth all day long, only to determine the world actually ended in 1906. Best to just accept V1 as it is written.




You quoted V1 as saying: it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the end of time.

No, Stubborn, no, I didn't.

I quoted a translation found on papalencyclicals.net as saying "until the end of time".

And (not only in the title of this thread) I quoted a Denzinger edition saying "usque ad consummationem saeculi".


Best to just accept V1 as it is written.

True!

So let's stay with the original Latin: "usque ad consummationem saeculi"


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True!

So let's stay with the original Latin: "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
That's fine. Either way it means the same thing. Christ promised: I am with you all days, even "usque ad consummationem saeculi".

"consummationem saeculi" is an event, the end of the world is an event, a process to get to that point, yes, but the event itself happens at a point in time, it is therefore a point in time, up until that point in time we know that Christ, the Church, will be with us. We are just as certain that till that point, we will have bishops and priests, as we are certain that He will not leave us as orphans. Once time runs out, woe to them who are on the wrong side at that point.



That's fine. Either way it means the same thing. Christ promised: I am with you all days, even "usque ad consummationem saeculi".

"consummationem saeculi" is an event, the end of the world is an event, a process to get to that point, yes, but the event itself happens at a point in time, it is therefore a point in time, up until that point in time we know that Christ, the Church, will be with us. We are just as certain that till that point, we will have bishops and priests, as we are certain that He will not leave us as orphans. Once time runs out, woe to them who are on the wrong side at that point.


Dear Stubborn, please forgive me, but I reject your teachings and will stay with the explanations of the Vatican Council and of Our Lord in Mt 24.