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Author Topic: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"  (Read 68847 times)

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For the time being, let me say that I do not expect that it will be possible to understand Leo XIII as contradicting Pastor aeternus of the Vatican Council, saying that there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi".

Leo XIII certainly doesn't contradict Pastor Aeternus. What he does contradict is your understanding of consummationem saeculi (consummation of the world), which is based on nothing but your own private interpretation of Scripture, and differs from how the Church has always understood it.  
 
It is also contrary to the obvious sense of Scripture.
 
Here's the Scripture passage you relied on for your interpretation of "consummation of the world :  “And when he was sitting on mount Olivet, the disciples came to him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the world?”  
 
Based on that you conclude: "Here we have the answer. The consummation will start with the abomination of desolation in the last days of tribulation before the second coming of Our Lord.:
 
But the apostles didn't ask Christ when "his coming and the consummation of the world" would start. They asked for the sign that would precede the events.  The abomination of desolation was one of over a dozen signs that Christ gives them, but none of the signs referred to the "start" of the consummation of the world, and more than they referred to the "start" of His second coming..  They were are all signs that will precede the events.
 
Next, you privately interpret the "abomination of desolation" as referring to The Robber Council.  Then, you join your two private interpretations of Scripture together and use them to interpret Pastor Aeternus' teaching that "there will be shepherds until the consummation of the world" as meaning "there will be shepherds until The Robber Council," which you now apparently consider the definitive meaning intended by the Council Fathers.  
 
Lastly, based on your most recent comment (above), it seems as though you would consider Leo XIII to be contradicting Vatican I, if anything he teaches conflicts with your interpretation of Pastor Aeternus.  

@Praeter

From your recent post:

Leo XIII certainly doesn't contradict Pastor Aeternus. What he does contradict is your understanding of consummationem saeculi (consummation of the world)

No he does not. See comments below on your previous post.




Quote from: Praeter, translation of Satis Cognitum, Leo XIII
And, since it was necessary that His divine mission should be perpetuated to the end of time, He took to Himself Disciples, trained by himself, and made them partakers of His own authority.

The Latin original does not say "perpetuated to the end of time" but "perenne ac perpetuum", which does not specify an end. So this is not pertinent to our question.


Quote from: Praeter, translation of Satis Cognitum, Leo XIII
But, as we have already said, the Apostolic mission was not destined to die with the Apostles themselves, or to come to an end in the course of time [...] but for all time (sed in omne tempus) – ‘even to the consummation of the world’.

The latin reads: "sed in omne tempus, usque ad consummationem saeculi". Obviously "in omne tempus" does not mean "in all eternity" or "until the last second of the era of this world", since it is explicitly qualified by an end: until the consummation.

"come to an end in the course of time" is the translation of "aut cuм tempore labi" which means "(neither die with the Apostles nor) stagger later". To claim that it includes a statement about our question is rather daring.


Quote from: Praeter, translation of Satis Cognitum, Leo XIII
Upon which St. Jerome says: ‘He who promises to remain with His Disciples to the end of the world declares that they will be forever victorious, and that He will never depart from those who believe in Him’ (In Matt., lib. iv., cap. 28, v. 20).”

The latin reads: "Quam ad rem Hieronymus: Qui usque ad consummationem saeculi cuм discipulis ...". Again, again, and again: "usque ad consummationem saeculi" is translated by "end of the world".

"to the end of the world" does not mean "to the last second of the era of this world" but rather "usque ad consummationem saeculi".


Quote from: Praeter
Notice, the apostolic mission will last until “the end of time”

Not in the Latin original.

Quote from: Praeter
and will not come to an end “in the course of time.”

Not in the Latin original.


Quote from: Praeter
Also notice that he confirms his statement that the Church will last “for all time,” by quoting Christ’s statement that He will be with the Church “even to the consummation of the world.” This shows that Leo XIII understand “the consummation of the world” to refer to the actual end of time, not a point during the course of time.

"for all time even to the consummation" obviously means that the consummation (whether point in time or time span) ends the "all time"-period.


Quote from: Praeter
That’s how the Church and her theologians have always interpreted the phrase.

I don't agree. The Church obviously has diligently chosen our Lord's own words from scripture to speak of the "end of time". You just have to look at the Latin texts. Not only scripture (translated by St Hieronymus), also Pope Leo XIII and St Hieronymus in Matt. carefully and accurately do not forget to use the term "consummatio saeculi".


Conclusion: Satis Cognitum does not prove your objection. Satis Cognitum does not say or imply that "consummatio saeculi" is a point in time, or the last microsecond of the era of this world. You have not presented an alternative definition of "consummatio saeculi".


P.S.: A comment on your recent post will follow. I'll postpone comments on the visibility-part and Pius XI.


Quote from: Praeter
Here's the Scripture passage you relied on for your interpretation of "consummation of the world :  “And when he was sitting on mount Olivet, the disciples came to him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the world?” 

Based on that you conclude: "Here we have the answer. The consummation will start with the abomination of desolation in the last days of tribulation before the second coming of Our Lord.:

But the apostles didn't ask Christ when "his coming and the consummation of the world" would start. They asked for the sign that would precede the events.  The abomination of desolation was one of over a dozen signs that Christ gives them, but none of the signs referred to the "start" of the consummation of the world, and more than they referred to the "start" of His second coming..  They were are all signs that will precede the events.

I rely on Our Lord's answer. He first announces several things to come before the end (sed nondum est finis). Then, starting with verse 14 he says:

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And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come. When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand. ... let them flee to the mountains ... let him not go back to take his coat ... For there shall be then great tribulation ... and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with much power and majesty.

When he says "and then shall the consummation come", he obviously is talking about the consummation the disciples asked for, the consummation of the world. And what he describes immediatly after saying "and then shall the consummation come" self-evidently is what constitutes the consummation.

If you don't agree, so be it. But so far, you haven't made your opinion plausible, that the Church takes "usque ad consummatio" to mean "until the last microsecond of the era of this world". You just act as if one had to take your opinion for granted. The truth is, that neither the Vatican Council, nor Leo XIII, nor Jerome define or explain what "usque ad consummatio" exactly means. But Mt 24 does.


Quote from: Praeter
Next, you privately interpret the "abomination of desolation" as referring to The Robber Council.  Then, you join your two private interpretations of Scripture together and use them to interpret Pastor Aeternus' teaching that "there will be shepherds until the consummation of the world" as meaning "there will be shepherds until The Robber Council," which you now apparently consider the definitive meaning intended by the Council Fathers.

No, I don't "privately interpret". That's not the case. Rather, I publicly state my opinion, I publicly state that I have come to the conclusion that the Robber Council is the abomination of desolation. If you disagree, then we still can debate the question what the consummation exactly is. Whether we're living in the time of tribulation or not, the question up to which point shepherds are promised, is independent of your or my assessment of the current situation.

Offline trad123

  • Supporter
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Ok, shepherds and teachers up to the consummation of the world.

Now, what exactly does consummatio saeculi mean?


St. Thomas Aquinas

CONTRA GENTILES

BOOK TWO: CREATION

https://dhspriory.org/thomas/english/ContraGentiles2.htm#84


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Chapter 84

SOLUTION OF THE PRECEDING ARGUMENTS

6.

(. . .)

the consummation or perfection of creatures


St. Thomas Aquinas

Summa Theologica
Question 73. The things that belong to the seventh day
Article 1. Whether the completion of the Divine works ought to be ascribed to the seventh day?

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1073.htm#article1

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Now the final perfection, which is the end of the whole universe, is the perfect beatitude of the Saints at the consummation of the world; and the first perfection is the completeness of the universe at its first founding, and this is what is ascribed to the seventh day.



St. Thomas Aquinas

Summa Theologica
Question 77. The time and manner of the resurrection
Article 1. Whether the time of our resurrection should be delayed till the end of the world?

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5077.htm#article1

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"God has provided something better for us, lest they should be consummated," i.e. perfected



St. Augustine

Letter 208 (A.D. 423)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102208.htm

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2. I exhort you, therefore, not to be too much troubled by those offenses which for this very reason were foretold as destined to come, that when they came we might remember that they had been foretold, and not be greatly disconcerted by them. For the Lord Himself in His gospel foretold them, saying, "Woe unto the world because of offenses! For it must needs be that offenses come; but woe unto that man by whom the offense comes!" Matthew 18:7 These are the men of whom the apostle said, "They seek their own, not the things that are Jesus Christ's." Philippians 2:21 There are, therefore, some who hold the honourable office of shepherds in order that they may provide for the flock of Christ; others occupy that position that they may enjoy the temporal honours and secular advantages connected with the office. It must needs happen that these two kinds of pastors, some dying, others succeeding them, should continue in the Catholic Church even to the end of time, and the judgment of the Lord. If, then, in the times of the apostles there were men such that Paul, grieved by their conduct, enumerates among his trials, "perils among false brethren," 1 Corinthians 11:26 and yet he did not haughtily cast them out, but patiently bore with them, how much more must such arise in our times, since the Lord most plainly says concerning this age which is drawing to a close, "that because iniquity shall abound the love of many shall wax cold." Matthew 24:12-13 The word which follows, however, ought to console and exhort us, for He adds, "He that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved."


Pius IX

1858

On Priests and the Care of Souls

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9amant1.htm

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Christ’s love towards men was so great that not only was He willing to endure most cruel sufferings for our salvation and an atrocious death on the cross, but also He wished to nourish us eternally in the sacrament of His body and blood. In this way, He might strengthen us by the presence of His divinity and be the safest bulwark of our spiritual life. And not content to have loved us with such an outstanding and truly divine love, He heaped benefits on benefits, poured out the riches of His love upon us, and, as you know so well, having loved His own He loved them to the end. For, declaring Himself to be an eternal Priest according to the order of Melchisedech, He instituted permanently His priesthood in the Catholic Church. He decreed that that same sacrifice which He performed is to redeem the whole human race from the yoke of sin to reconcile all things in heaven and earth, and to remain until the consummation of the world. He decreed that it be renewed and take plaice daily by the ministry of the priesthood. Only the reason for the offering is diverse, namely, that the salvific and most abundant fruits of His passion might forever be dispersed upon mankind.


Leo XIII

1902

On the Education of the Clergy

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13fidal.htm


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3.

(. . .)

The Catholic priesthood-divine in its origin, supernatural in its essence, immutable in its character, is not an institution that can accommodate itself with ease to human systems and opinions. A participation of the eternal priesthood of Jesus Christ, it must perpetuate even to the consummation of ages the same mission that the Eternal Father confided to His Incarnate Word: “Sicut misit me Pater, et ego mitto vos.”‘ To work the eternal salvation of souls will always be the great commandment of which it must never fall short, as to faithfully fulfil it, it must never cease to have recourse to those supernatural aids and those divine rules of thought and of action which Jesus Christ gave His Apostles when He sent them throughout the whole world to convert the nations to the Gospel.




St. John of Damascus

An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith (Book II)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/33042.htm

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Seven ages of this world are spoken of, that is, from the creation of the heaven and earth till the general consummation and resurrection of men. For there is a partial consummation, viz., the death of each man: but there is also a general and complete consummation, when the general resurrection of men will come to pass. And the eighth age is the age to come.



St. Chrysostom

Homily 20 on Matthew

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/200120.htm


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But besides this, the delay itself is not long; nay, for those things are at the doors, and we know not but that even in our own generation all things which concern us may have their accomplishment, and that fearful day may arrive, setting before us the awful and incorruptible tribunal.

Yea, for the more part of the signs are fulfilled, and the gospel moreover has been preached in all parts of the world, and the predictions of wars, and of earthquakes, and of famines, have come to pass, and the interval is not great.But is it that thou dost not see any signs? Why, this self-same thing is a very great sign.

For neither did they in Noah's time see any presages of that universal destruction, but in the midst of their playing, eating, marrying, doing all things to which they were used, even so they were overtaken by that fearful judgment. And they too in Sodom in like manner, living in delight, and suspecting none of what befell them, were consumed by those lightnings, which then came down upon them.

Considering then all these things, let us betake ourselves unto the preparation for our departure hence. For even if the common day of the consummation never overtake us, the end of each one is at the doors, whether he be old or young; and it is not possible for men after they have gone hence, either to buy oil any more, or to obtain pardon by prayers, though he that entreats be Abraham, Luke 16:24 or Noah, or Job, or Daniel. Ezekiel 14:14



Tertullian

On the Resurrection of the Flesh

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0316.htm

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Chapter 40

(. . .)

Now the inward man will have, of course, to be renewed by the suggestion of the Spirit, advancing by faith and holiness day after day, here in this life, not there after the resurrection, were our renewal is not a gradual process from day to day, but a consummation once for all complete.


St. Augustine

The City of God (Book XX)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120120.htm

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Chapter 16.— Of the New Heaven and the New Earth.

(. . .)

For as soon as those who are not written in the book of life have been judged and cast into eternal fire — the nature of which fire, or its position in the world or universe, I suppose is known to no man, unless perhaps the divine Spirit reveal it to some one — then shall the figure of this world pass away in a conflagration of universal fire, as once before the world was flooded with a deluge of universal water. And by this universal conflagration the qualities of the corruptible elements which suited our corruptible bodies shall utterly perish, and our substance shall receive such qualities as shall, by a wonderful transmutation, harmonize with our immortal bodies, so that, as the world itself is renewed to some better thing, it is fitly accommodated to men, themselves renewed in their flesh to some better thing.

(. . .)

For then there shall be no more of this world, no more of the surgings and restlessness of human life, and it is this which is symbolized by the sea.



St. Thomas Aquinas

Summa Theologica,

Question 74. The fire of the final conflagration

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5074.htm#article1

Article 1. Whether the world is to be cleansed?

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Since the world was, in a way, made for man's sake, it follows that, when man shall be glorified in the body, the other bodies of the world shall also be changed to a better state, so that it is rendered a more fitting place for him and more pleasant to look upon. Now in order that man obtain the glory of the body, it behooves first of all those things to be removed which are opposed to glory.

Article 2. Whether the cleansing of the world will be effected by fire?


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As stated above (Article 1) this cleansing of the world will remove from it the stain contracted from sin, and the impurity resulting from mixture, and will be a disposition to the perfection of glory; and consequently in this threefold respect it will be most fitting for it to be effected by fire.


Article 4. Whether that fire will cleanse also the higher heavens?

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The cleansing of the world will be for the purpose of removing from bodies the disposition contrary to the perfection of glory, and this perfection is the final consummation of the universe


St. Augustine

Exposition on Psalm 65

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1801065.htm

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9.

(. . .)

For the sea by a figure is spoken of this world, with saltness bitter, with storms troubled; where men of perverse and depraved appetites have become like fishes devouring one another. Observe the evil sea, bitter sea, with waves violent, observe with what sort of men it is filled. Who desires an inheritance except through the death of another? Who desires gain except by the loss of another? By the fall of others how many men wish to be exalted? How many, in order that they may buy, desire for other men to sell their goods? How they mutually oppress, and how they that are able do devour! And when one fish has devoured, the greater the less, itself also is devoured by some greater....Because evil fishes that were taken within the nets they said they would not endure; they themselves have become more evil than they whom they said they could not endure. For those nets did take fishes both good and evil.

The Lord says, "The kingdom of Heaven is like to a net cast into the sea, which gathers of every kind, which, when it had been filled, drawing out, and sitting on the shore, they gathered the good into vessels, but the evil they cast out: so it shall be," He says, "in the consummation of the world." Matthew 13:47-49

He shows what is the shore, He shows what is the end of the sea. "The angels shall go forth, and shall sever the evil from the midst of the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."



St. Augustine

The City of God (Book XXI)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120121.htm

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15.

(. . .)

For as by the sin of one man we have fallen into a misery so deplorable, so by the righteousness of one Man, who also is God, shall we come to a blessedness inconceivably exalted. Nor ought any one to trust that he has passed from the one man to the other until he shall have reached that place where there is no temptation, and have entered into the peace which he seeks in the many and various conflicts of this war, in which "the flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh." Galatians 5:17

Now, such a war as this would have had no existence if human nature had, in the exercise of free will, continued steadfast in the uprightness in which it was created. But now in its misery it makes war upon itself, because in its blessedness it would not continue at peace with God; and this, though it be a miserable calamity, is better than the earlier stages of this life, which do not recognize that a war is to be maintained. For better is it to contend with vices than without conflict to be subdued by them.

Better, I say, is war with the hope of peace everlasting than captivity without any thought of deliverance.

We long, indeed, for the cessation of this war,

(. . .)

But if (which God forbid) there had been no hope of so blessed a consummation, we should still have preferred to endure the hardness of this conflict, rather than, by our non-resistance, to yield ourselves to the dominion of vice.



St. Gregory of Nyssa

On the Making of Man

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2914.htm

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XVI. A contemplation of the Divine utterance which said — "Let us make man after our image and likeness"

17. Now just as any particular man is limited by his bodily dimensions, and the peculiar size which is conjoined with the superficies of his body is the measure of his separate existence, so I think that the entire plenitude of humanity was included by the God of all, by His power of foreknowledge, as it were in one body, and that this is what the text teaches us which says, "God created man, in the image of God created He him."

For the image is not in part of our nature, nor is the grace in any one of the things found in that nature, but this power extends equally to all the race: and a sign of this is that mind is implanted alike in all: for all have the power of understanding and deliberating, and of all else whereby the Divine nature finds its image in that which was made according to it: the man that was manifested at the first creation of the world, and he that shall be after the consummation of all, are alike: they equally bear in themselves the Divine image.


(. . .)


XXII. To those who say, "If the resurrection is a thing excellent and good, how is it that it has not happened already, but is hoped for in some periods of time?"

2. You will say then, What is this reason, in accordance with which the change of our painful life to that which we desire does not take place at once, but this heavy and corporeal existence of ours waits, extended to some determinate time, for the term of the consummation of all things, that then man's life may be set free as it were from the reins, and revert once more, released and free, to the life of blessedness and impassibility?


St. Basil

Hexaemeron (Homily 1)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/32011.htm


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4. One day, doubtless, their terrible condemnation will be the greater for all this worldly wisdom, since, seeing so clearly into vain sciences, they have wilfully shut their eyes to the knowledge of the truth. These men who measure the distances of the stars and describe them, both those of the North, always shining brilliantly in our view, and those of the southern pole visible to the inhabitants of the South, but unknown to us; who divide the Northern zone and the circle of the Zodiac into an infinity of parts, who observe with exactitude the course of the stars, their fixed places, their declensions, their return and the time that each takes to make its revolution; these men, I say, have discovered all except one thing: the fact that God is the Creator of the universe, and the just Judge who rewards all the actions of life according to their merit. They have not known how to raise themselves to the idea of the consummation of all things, the consequence of the doctrine of judgment, and to see that the world must change if souls pass from this life to a new life. In reality, as the nature of the present life presents an affinity to this world, so in the future life our souls will enjoy a lot conformable to their new condition.


Tatian

Tatian's Address to the Greeks

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0202.htm

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Chapter 6. Christians' Belief in the Resurrection

And on this account we believe that there will be a resurrection of bodies after the consummation of all things; not, as the Stoics affirm, according to the return of certain cycles, the same things being produced and destroyed for no useful purpose, but a resurrection once for all, when our periods of existence are completed, and in consequence solely of the constitution of things under which men alone live, for the purpose of passing judgment upon them.

(. . .)



St. Thomas Aquinas

Summa Theologica
Question 77. The time and manner of the resurrection
Article 1. Whether the time of our resurrection should be delayed till the end of the world?

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5077.htm


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Reply to Objection 1.

(. . .)

Christ's resurrection had to precede the resurrection of others who have all to rise again at the consummation of the world.


The Catechism of the Council of Trent


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ARTICLE VII: FROM THENCE HE SHALL COME TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD

Signs Of The General Judgment

The Sacred Scriptures inform us that the general judgment will be preceded by these three principal signs: the preaching of the Gospel throughout the world, a falling away from the faith, and the coming of Antichrist. This gospel of the kingdom, says our Lord, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come.


Saint John Eudes

THE LIFE AND THE KINGDOM OF JESUS: A TREATISE ON CHRISTIAN PERFECTION . Eudist Ebooks. Kindle Edition.


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The happiness of heaven consists in this alone, and in this alone consists true life on earth: to know, love and honor the Life and Mysteries of Christ. This will be the basis of the account you shall be required to give of yourself at the hour of death. One of the greatest reproaches that will be made against you in that hour, will be the scanty and poor attention and honor you have given to the Life and Mysteries of Jesus.

This will be the Purpose of the Son of God in holding His Universal Judgment at the consummation of time, namely, to exact, by the Power of His Justice, the honor and homage due to His Mysteries by all creatures, and even by His own enemies, before the eyes of heaven and earth. This also is the reason for the existence of hell, that those who shall have failed to honor Christ’s Mysteries on earth by love and free will, will render this necessary tribute in hell through constraint and force, by the Operation of God’s Justice in them.


 :cheers: