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Author Topic: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"  (Read 16796 times)

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Offline Struthio

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Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
« Reply #180 on: September 03, 2020, 03:07:17 PM »
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    • Earlier in this thread (Reply #93) I quoted St. Augustine, who says that the last judgment may or may not include the reign of Antichrist.

    Concerning the finis saeculi he is not uncertain, and includes the reign of Antichrist in the end of the age:


    Quote from: St. Augustine, De civitate Dei, Liber XXI, Caput XXVI
    Erit etiam in fine saeculi tribulatio tempore Antichristi, qualis nunquam antea fuit.
    Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch

    Quote from: St. Augustine, De civitate Dei, Liber XXI, Caput XXVI, translation
    Moreover, in the end of the age there shall be tribulation during the time of Antichrist, such as has never before been.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #181 on: September 03, 2020, 03:16:35 PM »
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    • Venerable Bede sees the end of the age as a span of time, when Antichrist will reign:


    Quote from: Beda, Explanatio Apocalypsis, Liber tertius, Caput XVII
    Antichristus qui in fine saeculi regnaturus est, ...
    Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch


    Quote from: Beda, Explanatio Apocalypsis, Liber tertius, Caput XVII, translation
    Antichrist, who is to reign in the end of the age, ...
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    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #182 on: September 03, 2020, 03:34:40 PM »
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    • Then, there is also Charlemagne, Holy Roman Emperor, saying that Antichrist will arrive at the very end of the age:


    Quote from: Carolus Magnus, De imaginibus, Liber Primus, Caput XX
    Adventum vero Antichristi, finem saeculi extremi, discrimen iudicii et aeternam bonorum gloriam, poenamque reproborum, concordi utrumque Testamentum veritate profatur.

    Quote from: Carolus Magnus, De imaginibus, Liber Primus, Caput XX, translation
    The actual arrival of Antichrist, at the very end of the age, the judgment separating, the eternal glory of the good and the punishment of the reprobate, is truely spelled out in both testaments concordantly.

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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #183 on: September 06, 2020, 08:48:46 AM »
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    • In his Enarrationes in Apocalypsin, Anselm of Laon, founder of the Glossa ordinaria (see Reply #164), gives an interesting interpretation of the voices of the seven thunders of Rev 10:3.

    At the beginning of his comment on Chapter 10, Anselm sums up the last part of Chapter 9, the sounding of the 6th trumpet which is about the raging of Antichrist in the Church:

    Quote from: Anselmus Laudunensis, Enarrationes in Apocalypsin, Caput X
    Descripta persecutione quae erit tempore Antichristi in Ecclesia, ponit econtra auxilium quod imminet eis, scilicet Christum.
    Quote from: translation
    Having described the persecution which will happen during the time of Antichrist in the Church, he [John] puts in contrast the help which is imminent, which of course is Christ.

    After the 6th trumpet of chapter 9, in chapter 10 John meets an Angel with a little book flipped open.

    Quote from: Rev 10, drbo.org
    [1] And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven [...]
    [2] And he had in his hand a little book open [...]
    [3] And he cried with a loud voice as when a lion roareth. And when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
    [4] And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Seal up the things which the seven thunders have spoken; and write them not.

    Anselm explains that the crying of the angel like the roaring of a lion refers to the preaching of the Church, while the voices of the seven thunders concern the time of Antichrist. He explains why John is asked to write not what the thunders spoke. The reason is not to conceal something from the faithful, but rather from the infidels. The reason is given in Mt 7:6 don't cast pearls before swine. The fact that John seals up the things that the thunders spoke and writes them not, signifies to us that in the time of Antichrist preaching will cease.

    Quote from: Anselmus Laudunensis, Enarrationes in Apocalypsin, Caput X
    Hic per suam personam ubi scribere prohibetur, significat nobis quod tempore Antichristi praedicatio cessabit.
    Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch


    Anselm's interpretation of the sealing up of the things the seven thunders have spoken, to signify that preaching will cease, fits well with the teaching of the Vatican Council, that there will be shepherds and doctors usque ad consummationem saeculi.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #184 on: September 07, 2020, 07:29:10 AM »
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    • Quote
    Nahum 1

    [7] The Lord is good and giveth strength in the day of trouble: and knoweth them that hope in him.
    Bonus Dominus, et confortans in die tribulationis, et sciens sperantes in se.
    [8] But with a flood that passeth by, he will make an utter end of the place thereof: and darkness shall pursue his enemies.
    Et in diluvio praetereunte consummationem faciet loci ejus, et inimicos ejus persequentur tenebrae.
    [9] What do ye devise against the Lord? he will make an utter end: there shall not rise a double affliction.
    Quid cogitatis contra Dominum? Consummationem ipse faciet : non consurget duplex tribulatio,
    [10] For as thorns embrace one another: so while they are feasting and drinking together, they shall be consumed as stubble that is fully dry.
    quia sicut spinae se invicem complectuntur, sic convivium eorum pariter potantium; consumentur quasi stipula ariditate plena.
    [11] Out of thee shall come forth one that imagineth evil against the Lord, contriving treachery in his mind.
    Ex te exibit cogitans contra Dominum malitiam, mente pertractans praevaricationem.
    Struthio,

    According to the CE, St. Jerome wrote a commentary on Nahum - it cites, for example - "Still, it is in Galilee that St. Jerome located the birthplace of Nahum ("Comment. in Nah." in P.L., XXV, 1232)," https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10670a.htm.

    Just curious if you have ever read anything regarding any comment Jerome may have made on the above passage?


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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #185 on: September 07, 2020, 02:09:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on September 07, 2020, 07:29:10 AM
    Just curious if you have ever read anything regarding any comment Jerome may have made on the above passage?

    No, not yet, not until I read your post.

    The whole book of Nahum, literally concerning the Assyrian city of Nineveh, anagogically understood deals with the consummation of the world, says St. Jerome in his Commentaria in Naum.

    I find the idiom consummationem facere (make an utter end) in Nahum 1:8 as well as Nahum 1:9 very interesting. Concerning the dies tribulationis of Nahum 1:7, Jerome says

    Quote from: Hieronymus Stridonensis, Commentaria in Naum
    Diem autem tribulationis secundum anagogén, diem intelligamus iudicii, de quo scripsit Isaias: Ecce dies Domini insanabilis venit furoris et irae, ponere orbem terrae desertum, et peccatores perdere ex eo (Isai. XIII, 9)
    Quote from: Hieronymus Stridonensis, Commentaria in Naum, translation
    Anagogically, we understand that the day of tribulation is Judgment Day, about which Isaiah wrote: Behold, the day of the Lord shall come, a [cruel] day [and full of indignation and] of wrath, and fury, to lay the land desolate, and to destroy the sinners thereof out of it. (Is 13:9)

    One more confirmation for the formula: Day of Wrath = Judgment Day = time of tribulation ( = time of the reign of Antichrist).


    Patrologia, mlat.uzh.ch, Hieronymus Stridonensis: Commentaria in Naum
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #186 on: September 13, 2020, 11:44:12 AM »
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    • Francisco Suárez, the Spanish Jesuit, also called Doctor Eximius et Pius (Exceptional and Pious Doctor), commenting on the Harlot of Rev. 17, says that the Church will be thoroughly destroyed, and many members will defect from the faith. But that doesn't mean that the Church will become antichristian and infidel, since those who defect from the faith, come to be by that very fact outside the Church, which always remains faithful.

    Furthermore, the (vicar of the) head of the true Church might leave Rome or go into hiding. Should God permit the person of some Pontiff in those times to fall and to yield to the tyrants by professing errors, that wouldn't mean that a Pontiff falls or that the Church falls. Being outside the Church, the Church could depose him:

    Quote from: Francisco Suárez S.J., Defense of the Catholic and Apostolic Faith Against the Errors of Anglicanism, Book Five, Chapter 21, Translated by Peter L.P. Simpson
    Chapter 21: From the vision of Revelation chs.17 and following the new error about Antichrist is refuted rather than confirmed.
    [...]
    8. In whatever way, then, that prophecy be understood, therefrom can it not only not be collected that Rome is already now antichristian, but also neither can it with any likelihood be inferred that the Church, which is now at Rome, either is already, or will at some time be, antichristian and infidel, because although many citizens and members of it should defect from the faith, they come to be by that very fact outside the Church, which always remains faithful. And much less does it follow that the head of the true Church is or will ever be Antichrist, because although the city is thoroughly destroyed because of apostasy, or for any other cause whatever, the head and rock of the Church could stand firm, or reside elsewhere, or go into hiding. Nay, although God should permit the person of some Pontiff in those times to fall and to yield to the tyrants by professing errors, not for that reason would the Pontiff, as he is Pontiff, fall, nor would the Church fall, but, after deposing him, the Church could for itself create a Pontiff. Which is said for exaggeration and for more explaining the thing; for it is more credible that God will not permit it, especially during so great a tribulation and oppression of the Church.
    aristotelophile.com

    This is pertinent to this thread, since Suárez explains how the Great Apostasy does not and cannot violate the indefectibility of the Church: Those who defect from the faith, come to be by that very fact outside the Church, which always remains faithful.



    P.S.: Suárez agrees with what the Holy Fathers teach unanimously:

    Quote from: St. Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice, Liber II, Caput 30
    Finally, the Holy Fathers teach unanimously not only that heretics are outside of the Church, but also that they are "ipso facto" deprived of all ecclesiastical jurisdiction and dignity. St. Cyprian (lib. 2, epist. 6) says: 'We affirm that absolutely no heretic or schismatic has any power or right'; and he also teaches (lib. 2, epist. 1) that the heretics who return to the Church must be received as laymen, even though they have been formerly priests or bishops in the Church. St. Optatus (lib. 1 cont. Parmen.) teaches that heretics and schismatics cannot have the keys of the kingdom of heaven, nor bind nor loose. St. Ambrose (lib. 1 de poenit., ca. 2), St. Augustine (in Enchir., cap 65), St. Jerome (lib. cont. Lucifer.) teach the same.
    strobertbellarmine.net
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #187 on: September 20, 2020, 12:52:56 PM »
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    • More than 50 years after the Vatican Council, Fr. Johannes Herrmann CSsR, approved by his Superior General Patritius Murray CSsR in Rome in 1936, begins his treaty about Antichrist with the statement, that the same will come at the consummation of the age.

     

    Quote
    INSTITUTIONES
    THEOLOGIAE DOGMATICAE
    P. JOANNES HERRMANN
    CONGR. SS. REDEMPTORIS
    ––––––––––
    TRACTATUS DECIMUS SEXTUS
    DE NOVISSIMIS
    ––––––––
    CAPUT III
    De Antichristo

    Antichristus est iste homo peccati et filius perditionis, qui in fine mundi Christo ejusque regno adversabitur.

    Vocatur per antonomasiam Antichristus, seu Christi adversarius, quia, licet jam multi fuerint in mundo multique sint adhuc antichristi, secundum illud (I. Joan., II, 18): «Antichristus venit, et nunc antichristi multi facti sunt», hi tamen omnes velut typi et umbra illius sunt, qui in consummatione saeculi ad gentes seducendas venturus est, et qui caput et princeps est omnium Christi inimicorum.
    ultramontes.pl

    Quote from: translation
    Antichrist is that man of sin and son of perdition, who at the end of the world will oppose Christ and his reign.

    He is called Antichrist or opponent of Christ by antonomasia, because many will be in the world and many have been so far, according to (1 John 2:18): «Antichrist cometh, even now there are become many Antichrists», although all these are rather like types or shadows of the one who will come at the consummation of the age to seduce the nations, and who is the head and leader of all enemies of Christ.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #188 on: April 22, 2021, 03:09:17 PM »
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    • In chapter 19 of book 20 of The City of God St. Augustine says that (the last) Antichrist including "his whole body" may sit (not "in", but rather) "as the temple of God", may sit as the Church of God as if he were the Church of God. (think impostor Conciliar Sect; see Reply #106) He also quotes 1 John 2:19 "[many Antichrists] went out from us."

    In chapter 30 of the same book, Augustine says that the time of Antichrist may be seen as part of the last judgment (see Reply #93).

    To better understand the idea of a judgment day including the time of Antichrist (or in other words the time of tribulation), here more from chapter 19:

    Quote from: De Civitate Dei, Liber XX, Caput XIX
    Caput XIX: Quid apostolus Paulus Thessalonicensibus scripserit de manifestatione Antichristi, cuius tempus dies domini subsequetur.
    [...]
    quod tamen eum dixisse non dubium est: non ueniet ad uiuos et mortuos iudicandos Christus, nisi prius uenerit ad seducendos in anima mortuos aduersarius eius Antichristus; quamuis ad occultum iam iudicium dei pertineat, quod ab illo seducentur. [...] tunc enim soluetur satanas et per illum Antichristum in omni sua uirtute mirabiliter quidem, sed mendaciter operabitur. [...]  seducentur eis signis atque prodigiis, qui seduci merebuntur, pro eo quod dilectionem, inquit, ueritatis non receperunt, ut salui fierent. nec dubitauit apostolus addere ac dicere: ideo mittet illis deus operationem erroris ut credant mendacio. deus enim mittet, quia deus diabolum facere ista permittet, iusto ipse iudicio, quamuis faciat ille iniquo malignoque consilio: ut iudicentur, inquit, omnes, qui non crediderunt ueritati, sed consenserunt iniquitati. proinde iudicati seducentur et seducti iudicabuntur. sed iudicati seducentur illis iudiciis dei occulte iustis, iuste occultis, quibus ab initio peccati rationalis creaturae numquam iudicare cessauit; seducti autem iudicabuntur nouissimo manifestoque iudicio per Christum Iesum, iustissime iudicaturum, iniustissime iudicatum.
    bkv.unifr.ch

    Quote from: The City of God, book 20, chapter 19, translation
    Chapter 19, What the Apostle Paul wrote to the Thessalonians about the manifestation of Antichrist, whose time is followed by the Day of the Lord
    [...]
    But without a doubt he [the Apostle Paul] clearly said: Christ will not come to judge the quick and the dead, unless his adversary Antichrist first come to seduce those who are dead in soul; and the fact that they will be seduced by him, already is part of the secret judgment of God. [...] For then shall Satan be loosed, and by him Antichrist shall work with wonderful lying power. [...] there shall be such signs and wonders as shall seduce those who shall deserve to be seduced, "because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved." Neither did the apostle scruple to go on to say, "For this cause God shall send upon them the working of error that they should believe a lie." For God shall send, because God shall permit the devil to do these things, the permission being by His own just judgment, though the doing of them is in pursuance of the devil's unrighteous and malignant purpose, "that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." Therefore, being judged, they shall be seduced, and, being seduced, they shall be judged. But, being judged, they shall be seduced by those secretly just and justly secret judgments of God, with which He has never ceased to judge since the first sin of the rational creatures; and, being seduced, they shall be judged in that last and manifest judgment administered by Jesus Christ, who was Himself most unjustly judged and shall most justly judge.

    In this manner, the first part of the "last judgment" is not different from the great many other "secret judgments" with which Our Lord has been continuously judging since the creation of man. The first part of the "last judgment" happens "in this world", while the second part will happen after His Second Coming.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #189 on: April 22, 2021, 03:21:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on April 22, 2021, 03:09:17 PM
    In chapter 19 of book 20 of The City of God St. Augustine says that (the last) Antichrist including "his whole body" may sit (not "in", but rather) "as the temple of God", may sit as the Church of God as if he were the Church of God. (think impostor Conciliar Sect; see Reply #106) He also quotes 1 John 2:19 "[many Antichrists] went out from us."

    In chapter 30 of the same book, Augustine says that the time of Antichrist may be seen as part of the last judgment (see Reply #93).

    To better understand the idea of a judgment day including the time of Antichrist (or in other words the time of tribulation), here more from chapter 19:
    bkv.unifr.ch

    In this manner, the first part of the "last judgment" is not different from the great many other "secret judgments" with which Our Lord has been continuously judging since the creation of man. The first part of the "last judgment" happens "in this world", while the second part will happen after His Second Coming.
    Struthio,

    So good to see you posting in this thread again - most important thread here.

    Thanks for this.

    I'm thinking pachamama in St. Peter's is perhaps the "abomination of desolation." Sure feels that way.

    The other huge key is Daniel 7:25 - Antichrist changing laws and times - if that's not the New Mass, new sacraments etc., I don't know what is.

    Keep a tight hold on that Rosary and the Good Book, and don't be a stranger.

    DR
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #190 on: April 22, 2021, 03:32:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on April 22, 2021, 03:09:17 PM
    In chapter 19 of book 20 of The City of God St. Augustine says that (the last) Antichrist including "his whole body" may sit (not "in", but rather) "as the temple of God", may sit as the Church of God as if he were the Church of God. (think impostor Conciliar Sect; see Reply #106) He also quotes 1 John 2:19 "[many Antichrists] went out from us."

    In chapter 30 of the same book, Augustine says that the time of Antichrist may be seen as part of the last judgment (see Reply #93).

    To better understand the idea of a judgment day including the time of Antichrist (or in other words the time of tribulation), here more from chapter 19:
    bkv.unifr.ch

    In this manner, the first part of the "last judgment" is not different from the great many other "secret judgments" with which Our Lord has been continuously judging since the creation of man. The first part of the "last judgment" happens "in this world", while the second part will happen after His Second Coming.
    Big John's a Coming!  
     
     In the Old West, a frail old man was out of work, and was offered a job as a bartender in the local dive. He was very surprised at the offer, and asked why it was available? The owner told him that there was no catch, except, to give him a warning, that should he be told that Big John was coming, to run for his life. 
     
     He took the job and found it to be quite easy, and settled down to the day to day. One day someone burst into the bar and yelled Big John's a coming!!!!! The entire bar stampeded out of the bar and ran over the frail old man and knocked him out behind the bar. When he came to, no sooner had he cleared his head than the bar door exploded open, and a mountain of a bearded man burst in riding on a giant Buffalo using a live rattlesnake for a whip. The giant jumped off the Buffalo, and pounded his fist on the bar, shaking the whole building, and said, I want a drink! The frail old man still on the floor behind the bar, reached up and put a bottle of whiskey on the bar and the mountain of a man grabbed it and bit off the glass neck and drank the entire bottle in one pass. Then he hurriedly jumped on the Buffalo to leave, and the frail old man asked him, don't you want another drink? The giant answered, "ain't got time, Big John's a comin!" END 
     
     If this Conciliar church apostasy is not The Great Apostasy, I'd hate to see what the great apostasy is.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #191 on: April 22, 2021, 03:41:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on April 22, 2021, 03:32:17 PM

     If this Conciliar church apostasy is not The Great Apostasy, I'd hate to see what the great apostasy is.

    It's perhaps not necessary to see that to have saving faith in Christ. But that sure clarifies things, and has broad ramifications.

    But then again . . . Christ told the apostles it would be seen by those with eyes to see.

    Sobering. Scary . . . the Biblical fear of God.
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #192 on: April 22, 2021, 03:42:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on April 22, 2021, 03:21:15 PM
    The other huge key is Daniel 7:25 - Antichrist changing laws and times - if that's not the New Mass, new sacraments etc., I don't know what is.

    Sure is. So says St. Jerome:

    Quote from: Jerome on Daniel
    ". . .And he shall crush the saints of the Most High, and will suppose himself to be able to alter times and laws." The Antichrist will wage war against the saints and will overcome them; and he shall exalt himself to such a height of arrogance (A) as to attempt changing the very laws of God and the sacred rites as well. He will also lift himself up against all that is called God, subjecting all religion to his own authority.

    tertullian.org

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    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #193 on: April 22, 2021, 03:45:44 PM »
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Durango77

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #194 on: April 22, 2021, 07:31:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Praeter on August 14, 2019, 09:19:44 PM
    Well, according to the teaching of Bishop Sanborn, the "end of time" must refer to 1965, or shortly thereafter.
    Seems like we're in the middle of the great apostasy, I think most of Europe is down to 10-20% of people nominally Catholic?  If this is not the great apostasy over the last 70 years I shudder to think what that would look like.  I think at this point things will just continue to go from bad to worse and then sometime in the next 10-100 years the man of sin will show up.  That's just my speculation though.
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