Author Topic: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"  (Read 5190 times)

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Offline Struthio

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  • Anselm of Laon (see my previous post above) on Mt 24:16-18:

    Quote from: Anselmus Laudunensis, Ennarrationes in Matthaeum
    Si autem haec omnia de consummatione saeculi intelligantur, mystice accipienda sunt, ut ita dicamus: Tunc qui sunt in Iudaea, hoc est in confessione verae fidei sunt, fugiant ad montes, hoc est culmen virtutum ascendant, et qui super tectum est, id est qui carnem, qua anima tegitur, superavit, non descendat ad infimos actus pristinae conversationis, neque desideria carnis repetat. Et qui in agro est, id est qui operatur in Ecclesia sicut Paulus plantando, et Apollo rigando, non revertatur tollere tunicam suam, id est non repetat saecularia, quibus se nudaverat.
    Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch


    Quote from: Anselmus Laudunensis, Ennarrationes in Matthaeum, translation
    But if we understand this of the consummation of the age, it's to be taken mystically, in the following way: Then they who are in Judea, that is confessing the true faith, flee to the mountains, that is climb to the top of virtue, and he who is on the housetop, that is who rose above the flesh which is covered by the soul, should not come down to the low acts of the early conversion, and not fall again into the desires of the flesh. And he who is on the field, that is who is planting in the Church like Paul and irrigating like Apollo, should not return to take his coat, that is not return to doing worldly things, making himself naked.

    Mt 24:16-18 is understood to pertain to the destruction of Jerusalem A.D. 70 as well as to the consummation of the age, when Antichrist and his body go to destroy the new Jerusalem, the City of God, the Church. The flight reminds of the judgment of Babylon, the harlot, Rev 18:

    Quote from: Rev 18, drbo.org
    [4] And I heard another voice from heaven, saying: Go out from her, my people; that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues.

    Anselm understands the flight (which was corporeally in A.D. 70) as spiritually or mystically at the consummation of the age.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Struthio

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  • St. Bruno di Segni lived around A.D. 1100. He served as Abbot of Montecassino, as Bishop of Segni, and he counselled four consecutive popes. In his Exposition on the Psalms, Bruno says that in the consummation of the age the Church will have to suffer those great tribulations, as have not been neither shall be at any other time.

    Quote from: Bruno Astensis, Expositio in Psalmos
    Magnas autem tribulationes in tempore apostolorum et martyrum sustinuit, et in saeculi consummatione passura est. « Erit enim tunc tribulatio talis, qualis non fuit, neque fiet (Matth. XXIV, 21) . »
    Patrologia Latina, mlat.uzh.ch


    Quote from: Bruno Astensis, Expositio in Psalmos, translation
    But she [the Church] suffered great tribulations in the time of the Apostles und Martyrs, and she will have to endure such in the consummation of the age. "For there shall be then great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be." (Mt 24:21)

    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


    Offline Struthio

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  • Saint and Martyr Cyprian, 3rd century bishop of Carthage, was the pre-eminent Latin writer of the Church before St. Jerome and St. Augustine. Here what these two great Church Fathers said about St. Cyprian:

    Quote from: St. Jerome, De viris illustribus
    Huius ingenii superfluum est indicem texere, cum sole clariora sint eius opera.
    Quote from: St. Jerome, De viris illustribus, translation
    It is unnecessary to catalogue the works of his genius, since they are more conspicuous than the sun.

    Quote from: St. Augustine, Sermo 335K
    Quam eloquens sanctus Cyprianus, quam fulgens framea eius in litteris eius apparuit.
    Quote from: St. Augustine, Sermo 335K, translation
    How eloquent Saint Cyprian was, how radiant his sword appears in his letters.


    Cyprian believes that the time of Antichrist is part of the consummation of the world. This is manifested by the opening paragraph of a letter addressed to Fortunatus:

    Quote from: Cyprianus Carthaginensis, Ad Fortunatum
    Desiderasti, Fortunate carissime, ut quoniam pressurarum et persecutionum pondus incumbit et in fine adque in consummatione mundi antichristi tempus infestum adpropinquare iam coepit, ad praeparandas et corroborandas fratrum mentes de diuinis scripturis hortamenta conponerem quibus milites Christi ad spiritale et caeleste certamen animarem.
    Scriptores Ecclesiastici, mlat.uzh.ch

    Quote from: Cyprianus Carthaginensis, Ad Fortunatum, translation
    You have desired, beloved Fortunatus, that since the burden of pressures and persecutions is lying heavy upon us, and the hostile time of Antichrist in the end and consummation of the world is already beginning to draw near, I would collect from the divine Scriptures some exhortations for preparing and strengthening the minds of the brethren, to animate the soldiers of Christ for the heavenly and spiritual contest.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline DecemRationis

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  • Saint and Martyr Cyprian, 3rd century bishop of Carthage, was the pre-eminent Latin writer of the Church before St. Jerome and St. Augustine. Here what these two great Church Fathers said about St. Cyprian:


    Cyprian believes that the time of Antichrist is part of the consummation of the world. This is manifested by the opening paragraph of a letter addressed to Fortunatus:
    Scriptores Ecclesiastici, mlat.uzh.ch
    There are implications to this thread in other areas, and all relate to a critical definition of terms, which as Aristotle and St. Thomas I think agree is a necessary beginning before there can be any reliable discourse.

    We see this all over the place: what is "necessity" when it comes to the sacrament of baptism, or when it comes to the Church and salvation; what does the "infallibility" or "indefectibility" of the Church mean, and when is the Magisterium infallible or indefectible (if it is)?  My own view is that the thought and definitions of the theologians, and even the teaching Church (at least most definitely in instances below the level of the universal, ordinary Magisterium certainly, even in the "authentic" Magisterium - witness Pope Francis) created problems in this regard that lead to and inspired the errors of Vatican II.

    Unaddressed ambiguities or failures in definitions of terms - below the level of the extraordinary or universal, ordinary Magisterium - have plagued the Church.

    I think herein there are vestiges of truth in the criticisms of "Feeneyites" that have not been granted proper scrutiny, and which are the intellectual foundations (the practical being the "ecumenical" actions and behaviors of prelates such as Archbishop Cushing) behind the phenomenon of Feeneyism.  

    I think, Struthio, you have done some yeoman's work in this area when it comes to the definitions and understandings of "the consummation of the world/age," which, if thought to be simply the absolute end of time,  the final period to this manifestation of life on earth, leads to the conundrum of the "gates of hell not prevailing" in the heretical or at least contradictory (in reference to the prior teachings of the Magisterium) teachings of  the ecclesia docens of the Conciliar Church, whose latest exemplar is Bergolio.

    Can you hear the canned laughter there? I can.

    Seems to me you either have a violation of the law of contradiction (which is unacceptable for the organ of the Revelation of God, the Church), or a false understanding prevalent regarding "consummation of the age" or how or in what sense the "gates of hell don't prevail" . . . one or the other.

    I believe in the Apostolic Catholic Church. I reject and denounce the malfeasant or “dysfunctional papal or episcopal Newchurch.” - Father Paul Trinchard

    Offline Struthio

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  • There are implications to this thread in other areas, and all relate to a critical definition of terms, which as Aristotle and St. Thomas I think agree is a necessary beginning before there can be any reliable discourse.

    We see this all over the place: what is "necessity" when it comes to the sacrament of baptism, or when it comes to the Church and salvation; what does the "infallibility" or "indefectibility" of the Church mean, and when is the Magisterium infallible or indefectible (if it is)?  My own view is that the thought and definitions of the theologians, and even the teaching Church (at least most definitely in instances below the level of the universal, ordinary Magisterium certainly, even in the "authentic" Magisterium - witness Pope Francis) created problems in this regard that lead to and inspired the errors of Vatican II.

    As far as I can see, Indefectibility of the Church and Infallibility of the Church are concepts of theologians and not teachings of the Magisterium proposed to be believed by the faithful. Each theologian gives his own definition of these/such terms and then quotes the Magisterium, Fathers, etc. to convince his readers. There are related propositions we have to believe, but it's not easy to find them all.

    E.g. Ludwig Ott: Die Kirche ist indefektibel, d.h. sie bleibt bis zum Ende der Welt als die von Christus gestiftete Heilsanstalt bestehen. (The Church is indefectible, i.e. she shall persist until to the end of the world as the salvific institution founded by Christ.) Then he qualifies this as Sententia certa. This "definition" is then wrapped into a lot of text stating various seemingly related propositions, garnished with quotes of Councils, Popes, Fathers etc.

    Theology is not mathematics, and even in mathematics many terms include the name of a mathematician to make sure the reader knows how the term is defined. Let's speak about Hilbert space or Ott indefectibility.

    Now, Ott doesn't even care to mention what "until to the end of the world" exactly means. His first quote is taken from the Vatican Council, but he neither quotes the first paragraph of Dei filius nor of Pastor aeternus. Later on though, he does quote Mt 28:20 (consummation of the age translated to German as Ende der Welt).

    Quote from: Vatican Council
    Dei Filius et generis humani Redemptor Dominus Noster Iesus Christus, ad Patrem caelestem rediturus, cum Ecclesia sua in terris militante, omnibus diebus usque ad consummationem saeculi futurum se esse promisit.

    The Son of God, redeemer of the human race, Our Lord Jesus Christ, when about to return to his heavenly Father, promised that he would be with his church militant upon earth all days even to the future consummation of the age.


    Quote from: Vatican Council
    Pastor aeternus [...] ita in Ecclesia sua Pastores et Doctores usque ad consummationem saeculi esse voluit.

    The eternal shepherd [...] in like manner it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the consummation of the age.


    By quoting Mt 28:20, until the consummation of the age, the Vatican Council redirects the readers to scripture and the exegesis of the Fathers. Anyone praying the Divine Office (at the time of the Vatican Council), read the exegesis of St. Jerome on Matthew 24:15-35 once a year on the last Sunday after Pentecost; Jerome equates the consummation of the age and the abomination of desolation and the reign of Antichrist.

    There must be a reason, why theologians of more recent times seem unaware of the subtleties of the term consummation of the age used right at the beginning of Dei Filius and Pastor aeternus. I can only guess: The Apostle Paul speaks about an operation of error sent by God to lead many to the slaughterhouse of Antichrist. CI user Incredulous has it in his signature: in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer ("deathbed warning of St. Francis of Assisi"). Some of the Old Testament prophets announce that God will send a pastor stultus, a foolhardy shepherd, who will slaughter and sell the flock. Or alternatively (for vegans) at harvest time the fields are burnt down, the vines and olive trees are cut down. The bad shepherd or grower is identified as Antichrist by the Fathers. God's sword is inebriated in heaven (apostate bishops of the Church) it shall come down upon the people of my slaughter unto judgment (Is 34:5). If God sends the operation of error to ensure that those sheep who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity don't flee from Juda, it may be convenient that the manuals of theologians do not tell all the details about the consummation of the age. But as I said, that's just a guess.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


    Offline DecemRationis

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  • As far as I can see, Indefectibility of the Church and Infallibility of the Church are concepts of theologians and not teachings of the Magisterium proposed to be believed by the faithful. Each theologian gives his own definition of these/such terms and then quotes the Magisterium, Fathers, etc. to convince his readers. There are related propositions we have to believe, but it's not easy to find them all.

    E.g. Ludwig Ott: Die Kirche ist indefektibel, d.h. sie bleibt bis zum Ende der Welt als die von Christus gestiftete Heilsanstalt bestehen. (The Church is indefectible, i.e. she shall persist until to the end of the world as the salvific institution founded by Christ.) Then he qualifies this as Sententia certa. This "definition" is then wrapped into a lot of text stating various seemingly related propositions, garnished with quotes of Councils, Popes, Fathers etc.

    Theology is not mathematics, and even in mathematics many terms include the name of a mathematician to make sure the reader knows how the term is defined. Let's speak about Hilbert space or Ott indefectibility.

    Now, Ott doesn't even care to mention what "until to the end of the world" exactly means. His first quote is taken from the Vatican Council, but he neither quotes the first paragraph of Dei filius nor of Pastor aeternus. Later on though, he does quote Mt 28:20 (consummation of the age translated to German as Ende der Welt).



    By quoting Mt 28:20, until the consummation of the age, the Vatican Council redirects the readers to scripture and the exegesis of the Fathers. Anyone praying the Divine Office (at the time of the Vatican Council), read the exegesis of St. Jerome on Matthew 24:15-35 once a year on the last Sunday after Pentecost; Jerome equates the consummation of the age and the abomination of desolation and the reign of Antichrist.

    There must be a reason, why theologians of more recent times seem unaware of the subtleties of the term consummation of the age used right at the beginning of Dei Filius and Pastor aeternus. I can only guess: The Apostle Paul speaks about an operation of error sent by God to lead many to the slaughterhouse of Antichrist. CI user Incredulous has it in his signature: in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer ("deathbed warning of St. Francis of Assisi"). Some of the Old Testament prophets announce that God will send a pastor stultus, a foolhardy shepherd, who will slaughter and sell the flock. Or alternatively (for vegans) at harvest time the fields are burnt down, the vines and olive trees are cut down. The bad shepherd or grower is identified as Antichrist by the Fathers. God's sword is inebriated in heaven (apostate bishops of the Church) it shall come down upon the people of my slaughter unto judgment (Is 34:5). If God sends the operation of error to ensure that those sheep who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity don't flee from Juda, it may be convenient that the manuals of theologians do not tell all the details about the consummation of the age. But as I said, that's just a guess.
    Yes, excellent observations. 

    I think this is an important point to keep in view: the Church (pope and bishops) are the Magisterium of the New Covenant and replaced the Magisterium (high priest, Levitical priesthood, Pharisees) of the Old Covenant. Look to the Old Testament and see what it says about the "Magisterium" of Old Israel; it will be instructive as to what we experience under the New Covenant - we are told to do this. Romans 15:4, I Corinthians 10:11, etc.  

    The "Magisterium" of Israel didn't recognize the Messiah,  and was not "indefectible"; quite the opposite, and it was much worse than merely having the privation of that quality.  

    That God would withhold certain things from the Magisterium, that it would not see some things, is no cause for wonder in light of the Scriptural precedent of Israel. 

    And Israel also thought it was beyond certain evils and judgments because of its ɛƖɛctıon and chosen position; just read the prophets.

    The things revealed belong to us and our children (the Church collectively) - and that's far from everything - and the secret things belong unto God. 
    I believe in the Apostolic Catholic Church. I reject and denounce the malfeasant or “dysfunctional papal or episcopal Newchurch.” - Father Paul Trinchard

    Offline Struthio

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  • Ioannes Damascenus, Saint John of Damascus, Doctor of the Church, often referred to as the Doctor of the Assumption due to his writings on the Assumption of Mary, teaches that Antichrist comes at the consummation of the age:

    Quote from: St. John of Damascus, DE FIDE ORTHODOXA
    CHAPTER XXVI. Concerning the Antichrist.

    It should be known that the Antichrist is bound to come. Every one, therefore, who confesses not that the Son of God came in the flesh and is perfect God and became perfect man, after being God, is Antichrist. But in a peculiar and special sense he who comes at the consummation of the age is called Antichrist.
    documentacatholicaomnia.eu
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline forlorn

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  • Are you people seriously dismissing indefectibility as a made-up modern concept?

    "Gates of Hell"? Does that not strike any bells?


    Offline DecemRationis

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  • Are you people seriously dismissing indefectibility as a made-up modern concept?

    "Gates of Hell"? Does that not strike any bells?

    What does "prevail" mean? Neither I nor Struthio believe hell will prevail over the Church. In my understanding, "prevail" means win the war, permanently defeat the enemy. Satan and hell will not "prevail."

    Now, whether they have a position of victory for a time is another matter. Here is no less an authority than Cardinal Manning:


    Quote
    So too, He said, when He stood before Pilate, “Thou shouldst not have any power against Me, unless it were given thee from above.” [62] It was the will of God; it was the concession of the Father that Pilate had power over His incarnate Son. Again, He said, “Thinkest thou that I cannot ask My Father, and He will give Me presently more than twelve legions of angels? how then shall the Scripture be fulfilled?” [63] In like manner with His Church. Until the hour is come when the barrier shall, by the Divine will, be taken out of the way, no one has power to lay a hand upon it. The gates of hell may war against it; they may strive and wrestle, as they struggle now, with the Vicar of our Lord; but no one has the power to move Him one step, until the hour shall come when the Son of God shall permit, for a time, the powers of evil to prevail. That He will permit it for a time stands in the book of prophecy. When the hindrance is taken away, the man of sin will be revealed; then will come the persecution of three years and a half, short, but terrible, during which the Church of God will return into its state of suffering, as in the beginning; and the imperishable Church of God, by its inextinguishable life derived from the pierced side of Jesus, which for three hundred years lived on through blood, will live on still through the fires of the times of Antichrist.

    Manning, Archbishop Henry. The Present Crisis of the Holy See . Desert Will Flower iPress. Kindle Edition

    No, the "gates of hell" will not prevail.
    I believe in the Apostolic Catholic Church. I reject and denounce the malfeasant or “dysfunctional papal or episcopal Newchurch.” - Father Paul Trinchard

    Offline Struthio

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  • Are you people seriously dismissing indefectibility as a made-up modern concept?

    Quote the definition of indefectibility of your favourite theologian, and I can answer your question and tell you whether I dismiss it or not. I don't dismiss Ott indefectibility, since Ott speaks of indefectibilty until to the end of the world, and then renders the date of expiry more precisely, quoting Mt 28:20. Probably most recent theologians base their lecture on indefectibility primarily on Pastor aeternus and therefore at least implicitly on Mt 28:20 specifying usque ad consummationem saeculi as date of expiry.  

    And no, the concept is not modern.

    But why ask theologians? We have the infallible General Vatican Council unambiguously teaching:

    Quote from: General Vatican Council, Pastor aeternus
    Pastor aeternus [...]; ita in Ecclesia sua Pastores et Doctores usque ad consummationem saeculi esse voluit.

    In a peculiar and special sense, he who comes at the consummation of the age is called Antichrist. (Saint John of Damascus)


    "Gates of Hell"? Does that not strike any bells?

    Two bells are ringing:  Reply #11 by forlorn, Reply #12 by Struthio.


    By the way, I haven't seen you since page 7. What is your comment on all the quotes I posted of the Fathers and Doctors and Saints and Bishops of the Church? Do you retract your accusation against me that I "twist Our Lord's words" (Reply #90) or do you accuse them, too?
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Struthio

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  • Hildegard von Bingen on the indefectibility of the Church:

    Quote from: Scivias Hildegardis, Visio undecima
    Quod Ecclesia a perfectione sua fulget in decore justitiae usque ad tempus Antichristi.
    clerus.org

    Quote from: Scivias Hildegardis, Visio undecima, translation
    Because by her perfection the Church sparkles in the adornment of justice up to the time of Antichrist.

    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


    Offline forlorn

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  • By the way, I haven't seen you since page 7. What is your comment on all the quotes I posted of the Fathers and Doctors and Saints and Bishops of the Church? Do you retract your accusation against me that I "twist Our Lord's words" (Reply #90) or do you accuse them, too?
    You made several posts in a row ignoring everything I was saying and calling me an alcoholic, even telling me to stop responding, and now you're mad that I did?

    You're ridiculous.

    Offline Struthio

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  • And concerning the topic, forlorn, do you accuse the Fathers and Doctors and Saints and Bishops of the Church to "twist Our Lord's words", too?


    I answered your question: "Are you people seriously dismissing indefectibility as a made-up modern concept?"
    Please answer mine!
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline forlorn

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  • And concerning the topic, forlorn, do you accuse the Fathers and Doctors and Saints and Bishops of the Church to "twist Our Lord's words", too?


    I answered your question: "Are you people seriously dismissing indefectibility as a made-up modern concept?"
    Please answer mine!
    You can waddle on to page 6 and 7 to read what I said.

    Offline Struthio

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  • Remigius of Auxerre was a Benedictine monk during the Carolingian period. He taught in Reims and in Paris and earned the reputation of  "egregius doctor" and "in divinis et humanis scripturis eruditissimus".

    Commenting on Gen 15:14, Remigius says that during the end of the age Antichrist will rage.

    Quote from: Gen 15:12, drbo.org
    And when the sun was setting, a deep sleep fell upon Abram, and a great and darksome horror seized upon him.

    Cumque sol occumberet, sopor irruit super Abram, et horror magnus et tenebrosus invasit eum.

    Quote from: Remigius Antissiodorensis, Commentarius in Genesim, 15:12
    The setting of the sun signifies the end of the age, when due to Antichrist there shall be gloomy trembling, that is persecution or confusion.

    Solis occubitus finem saeculi significat, quando per Antichristum tenebrosus horror, id est persecutio vel perturbatio futura est.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


     

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