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Author Topic: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"  (Read 16817 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2019, 06:27:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on August 15, 2019, 06:40:28 AM
    Very good question.

    The abomination of desolation, which is the beginning of the consummation of the world, would be the Robber Council 1962-1965 where virtually all apostolically authorized shepherds met to declare their revolt (2 Thess 2,3) and apostasy and adherence to the "synthesis of all heresies" in a most solemn act. They found a new religion of man and make fire to come down from heaven unto the earth (Apoc 13,13) for their new pentecost.

    The Vatican Council explains the promise of our Lord (Mt 28,20) that there shall be apostolically authorized sheperds until the consummation.

    The consummation is lasting more than 50 years now. It may last 70 years like the babylonian exile (Dan 9,2), or end before the generation of witnesses of the abomination will pass (Mt 24,32-34).

    What should one do in this time of tribulation? flee to the mountains (Mt 24,16), not go back to the house to take ones coat (Mt 24,17-18), Go out from Babylon (Ap 18,4). If therefore they shall say to you: Behold he is in the desert, go ye not out: Behold he is in the closets, believe it not. (Mt 24,26)


    Looks like home-aloning is recommended.
    Were all the authorized shepherds at the Robber Council?  Did any of the authorized shepherds renounce the Robber Council?
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #16 on: August 16, 2019, 07:39:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 16, 2019, 06:19:39 AM
    What you are doing, is starting with home alonesim, then going through these theological gymnastics [...]

    No, Stubborn, not true.

    I was told that the sedevacantist position seems unlikely, since Pastor aeternus refers to Our Lord's promise not to leave us as orphans. Then I checked what Pastor aeternus really teaches.

    It's not "theological gymnastics" to ask what exactly the Council means when saying usque ad consummationem saeculi.

    I was quite astonished to find support for home-alonism.


    Quote from: Stubborn on August 16, 2019, 06:19:39 AM
    It does not mean that the consummation has already begun [...]

    True, I agree. When I say that the consummation has already begun, then that's an observation of mine and not a statement of the Vatican Council. Taking the comments of St. John Chrysostom and the Robber Council as I see it, I come to the conclusion that it has begun.


    Quote from: Stubborn on August 16, 2019, 06:19:39 AM
    [...] leave us as orphans, hiding in the dark waiting for, what, the end?        

    Prophecy is clear. In the end "the band of the holy people" will be "scattered" (Dan 12,7). The function of the shepherds, and the Pope, is to gather the "holy people", not scatter them. But they will be scattered.

    Also, Our Lord himself says: "And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened." (Mt 24,22) Does that sound like we have to expect flourishing parishes, shepherds and a Pope, when Our Lord returns?




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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #17 on: August 16, 2019, 08:10:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 07:39:47 AM
    No, Stubborn, not true.

    I was told that the sedevacantist position seems unlikely, since Pastor aeternus refers to Our Lord's promise not to leave us as orphans. Then I checked what Pastor aeternus really teaches.
    Without pastors, we would be orphans with no one to feed us, i.e. feed our souls. With that in mind, it is only logical that priests should be the last ones to go, not the first. Seems you claim that V1 really teaches they're the first ones to go, which is exactly opposite of what it actually says.





     
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #18 on: August 16, 2019, 08:11:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on August 16, 2019, 06:27:31 AM
    Were all the authorized shepherds at the Robber Council?  Did any of the authorized shepherds renounce the Robber Council?

    Whether present or not at the Robber Council, we don't need more than one hand to count those who rejected it.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #19 on: August 16, 2019, 08:25:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 16, 2019, 08:10:06 AM
    Without pastors, we would be orphans with no one to feed us, i.e. feed our souls. With that in mind, it is only logical that priests should be the last ones to go, not the first. Seems you claim that V1 really teaches they're the first ones to go, which is exactly opposite of what it actually says.

    You are speculating based on the assumption that it's impossible that Catholics are or will be orphans during the consummation.

    Since the Vatican Council says that there will be shepherds until the consummation, according to Our Lord's promise, your assumption is unacceptable.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #20 on: August 16, 2019, 08:39:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 08:11:57 AM
    Whether present or not at the Robber Council, we don't need more than one hand to count those who rejected it.
    As long as there that many, then the shepherds are not missing.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #21 on: August 16, 2019, 09:22:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 08:25:56 AM
    You are speculating based on the assumption that it's impossible that Catholics are or will be orphans during the consummation.

    Since the Vatican Council says that there will be shepherds until the consummation, according to Our Lord's promise, your assumption is unacceptable.
    Since the Vatican Council says that there will be shepherds until the consummation, according to Our Lord's promise, your assumption is unacceptable. - - -  What? :confused:

    I am not basing a speculation on an assumption, I am accepting as fact what both V1 and Our Lord Himself said in John 14:18: "I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you."

    Since the Vatican Council says that there will be shepherds until the consummation, according to Our Lord's promise, for faithful Catholics it is a fact that we will not be left as orphans, that there will always be priests and bishops for faithful Catholics, as long as there are faithful Catholics in this world.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #22 on: August 16, 2019, 09:32:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on August 16, 2019, 08:39:27 AM
    As long as there that many, then the shepherds are not missing.

    They're deceased. Apostolic succession is over. R&R-proponents say that that's impossible, and conclude that the robber conciliar hierarchy didn't lose their offices though they're modernist heretics. Sedevacantists say that they did lose offices. But sedevacantist bishops have no apostolic seat or mandate either.

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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #23 on: August 16, 2019, 09:46:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 16, 2019, 09:22:20 AM
    I am not basing a speculation on an assumption, I am accepting as fact what both V1 and Our Lord Himself said in John 14:18: "I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you."

    See verse 16. Our Lord speaks about the Paraclete, and not about shepherds.



    Quote from: Stubborn on August 16, 2019, 09:22:20 AM
    Since the Vatican Council says that there will be shepherds until the consummation, according to Our Lord's promise, for faithful Catholics it is a fact that we will not be left as orphans, that there will always be priests and bishops for faithful Catholics, as long as there are faithful Catholics in this world.

    No. The meaning of the term "consummation of the world", used by the Vatican Council, is given by Our Lord in Mt 28 and Mt 24 (see the opening post).


    You suggest again that the consummation identifies a point in time or a very short event before the return of Our Lord. But this idea is based on nothing but on your own fantasy.

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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #24 on: August 16, 2019, 10:19:10 AM »
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    • You want the word "consummation" to mean "consummating" - I think. At this point I can't be sure what you want it to mean.

    At what point is the marriage complete? At the consummation of the marriage.
    At what point does the world end? At the consummation of the world.




     
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    Offline Praeter

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #25 on: August 16, 2019, 11:12:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 09:32:49 AM
    They're deceased. Apostolic succession is over. R&R-proponents say that that's impossible, and conclude that the robber conciliar hierarchy didn't lose their offices though they're modernist heretics. Sedevacantists say that they did lose offices. But sedevacantist bishops have no apostolic seat or mandate either.
    Just to be clear, are you saying the Church, as Christ founded it, no longer exists?  That there is no longer a Church that can legitimately carry out the mission that Christ entrusted to it (which requires legitimate authority)?
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #26 on: August 16, 2019, 11:34:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on August 16, 2019, 10:19:10 AM
    You want the word "consummation" to mean "consummating" - I think. At this point I can't be sure what you want it to mean.

    At what point is the marriage complete? At the consummation of the marriage.
    At what point does the world end? At the consummation of the world.


    I don't want the term "consummation of the world" mean anything. I just look the meaning up.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #27 on: August 16, 2019, 11:55:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 11:34:30 AM
    I don't want the term "consummation of the world" mean anything. I just look the meaning up.
    It means the end of the world. So if there will be a hierarchy until the consummation of the world, there will be a hierarchy until the world ends. Has the world ended yet? Not quite. 
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #28 on: August 16, 2019, 12:00:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Praeter on August 16, 2019, 11:12:01 AM
    Just to be clear, are you saying the Church, as Christ founded it, no longer exists?

    No. The new covenant cannot be and is not over, and the gates of hell have not prevailed and will not prevail against the Church.


    Quote from: Praeter on August 16, 2019, 11:12:01 AM
    That there is no longer a Church that can legitimately carry out the mission that Christ entrusted to it (which requires legitimate authority)?

    No, I don't subscribe to that proposition. My conclusion is: Currently, seats are occupied by apostates or modernist heretics. So currently, the Church isn't carrying out certain tasks which are reserved to legitimate occupants of the seats.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
    « Reply #29 on: August 16, 2019, 12:03:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on August 16, 2019, 11:55:58 AM
    It means the end of the world. So if there will be a hierarchy until the consummation of the world, there will be a hierarchy until the world ends. Has the world ended yet? Not quite.

    If I want to know, what consummation of the world means, I look it up in canonical texts, not in posts of forlorn@cathinfo.

     ;)
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