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Author Topic: Vatican Council says there will be shepherds "usque ad consummationem saeculi"  (Read 2247 times)

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Online Struthio

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So then, just as he sent apostles, whom he chose out of the world [39], even as he had been sent by the Father [40], in like manner it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the end of time.
Source: Vatican Council, Pastor aeternus papalencyclicals.net

There should be shepherds and teachers until the end of time. What exactly does until the end of time mean? Here the latin:
 

Quote
ita in Ecclesia sua pastores et doctores "usque ad consummationem saeculi" [Mt 28,20] esse voluit.
Source: Denzinger/Hünermann: Enchiridium symbolorum, Herder, 2009

Ok, shepherds and teachers up to the consummation of the world.
Now, what exactly does consummatio saeculi mean?

Quote
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
 
 docentes eos servare omnia quaecumque mandavi vobis : et ecce ego vobiscum sum omnibus diebus, usque ad consummationem saeculi.
 
Source: Mt 28,20 drbo.org

Christ is with us in his shepherds. This doesn't answer our question: What exactly does consummatio saeculi mean?
 


Quote
[3] And when he was sitting on mount Olivet, the disciples came to him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the world?
 
 Sedente autem eo super montem Oliveti, accesserunt ad eum discipuli secreto, dicentes : Dic nobis, quando haec erunt? et quod signum adventus tui, et consummationis saeculi?
 

[...]
[14] And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come.
 
 Et praedicabitur hoc Evangelium regni in universo orbe, in testimonium omnibus gentibus : et tunc veniet consummatio.
 
 [15] When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.
 
 Cum ergo videritis abominationem desolationis, quae dicta est a Daniele propheta, stantem in loco sancto, qui legit, intelligat:
Source: Mt 24 drbo.org

Here we have the answer. The consummation will start with the abomination of desolation in the last days of tribulation before the second coming of Our Lord.

See also: Daniel 9,27

What is the abomination of desolation?

St. John Chrysostom in the Opus imperfectum on Matthew in Homily XLIX on Mt 24 says that the destruction of the Church will parallel the destruction of Jerusalem A.D. 70. The hosts of Titus in A.D. 70 are hosts of heretics at that time. Most Jews were killed in A.D. 70, and the rest scattered all over the world. Most Catholics will be spiritually killed at that time, and the rest scattered all over the world. Following St. John Chrysostom, "the" Antichrist is not a single person but is the hosts of heretics.
 

Conclusion: The infallible Vatican Council, in Pastor aeternus, says that there shall be shepherds and teachers up to the consummation, which starts with the erection of the abomination of desolation, which is the beginning of the "last days", of  the "time of tribulation".
It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896

Offline Praeter

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Well, according to the teaching of Bishop Sanborn, the "end of time" must refer to 1965, or shortly thereafter.


Offline LeDeg

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Very interesting insights.


Honest question. How does the conclusion not lead one to consider that the Home Aloners are correct?
"The whole secret of the campaigns unleashed against Europe can be explained in two words: Masonry and Communism... we have to extirpate these two evils from our land." -Franco

Offline Stubborn

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Very interesting insights.


Honest question. How does the conclusion not lead one to consider that the Home Aloners are correct?
I didn't get that out of the conclusion.

If there will be shepherds and teachers, i.e. bishops and priests till the end of time, then Home Aloners (the dogmatic ones), are wrong to think there are no priests left because the end of time has not yet come.  The Home Aloners who stay home because there is no TLM near them but do indeed go to the True Mass when it is possible for them to go, are correct in doing so. 
For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

Online Struthio

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Honest question. How does the conclusion not lead one to consider that the Home Aloners are correct?

Very good question.

The abomination of desolation, which is the beginning of the consummation of the world, would be the Robber Council 1962-1965 where virtually all apostolically authorized shepherds met to declare their revolt (2 Thess 2,3) and apostasy and adherence to the "synthesis of all heresies" in a most solemn act. They found a new religion of man and make fire to come down from heaven unto the earth (Apoc 13,13) for their new pentecost.

The Vatican Council explains the promise of our Lord (Mt 28,20) that there shall be apostolically authorized sheperds until the consummation.

The consummation is lasting more than 50 years now. It may last 70 years like the babylonian exile (Dan 9,2), or end before the generation of witnesses of the abomination will pass (Mt 24,32-34).

What should one do in this time of tribulation? flee to the mountains (Mt 24,16), not go back to the house to take ones coat (Mt 24,17-18), Go out from Babylon (Ap 18,4). If therefore they shall say to you: Behold he is in the desert, go ye not out: Behold he is in the closets, believe it not. (Mt 24,26)


Looks like home-aloning is recommended.
It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896


Online Struthio

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I didn't get that out of the conclusion.

If there will be shepherds and teachers, i.e. bishops and priests till the end of time, then [...]


The consummation is a time span, the time span we're living in. There will be shepherds and teachers until that time span, until the beginning of that time span.
It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896

Offline Stubborn

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The consummation is a time span, the time span we're living in. There will be shepherds and teachers until that time span, until the beginning of that time span.
You quoted V1 as saying: it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the end of time.

The end of time is the end point in time, it is when time stops because time ends and eternity begins for whoever is left on earth, it's when Our Lord comes again, that is the final judgement, that is when all of human history comes to an end, which is when the world ends, but the end of time is not a time span. Up until it's end is a span of time, but time's end is not a span of time - and no one except God knows when that will happen.

Up until that time, there will be priests and bishops is what V1 says, the only way to make it say what you are suggesting it says, is to change what it says, which is what you are doing, you're just taking the long way around.

You are suggesting it really says: it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the beginning of the end of time.

We can toss bible verses back and forth all day long, only to determine the world actually ended in 1906. Best to just accept V1 as it is written.


For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

Online Struthio

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You quoted V1 as saying: it was his will that in his church there should be shepherds and teachers until the end of time.

No, Stubborn, no, I didn't.

I quoted a translation found on papalencyclicals.net as saying "until the end of time".

And (not only in the title of this thread) I quoted a Denzinger edition saying "usque ad consummationem saeculi".


Best to just accept V1 as it is written.

True!

So let's stay with the original Latin: "usque ad consummationem saeculi"

It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896


Offline Stubborn

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True!

So let's stay with the original Latin: "usque ad consummationem saeculi"
That's fine. Either way it means the same thing. Christ promised: I am with you all days, even "usque ad consummationem saeculi".

"consummationem saeculi" is an event, the end of the world is an event, a process to get to that point, yes, but the event itself happens at a point in time, it is therefore a point in time, up until that point in time we know that Christ, the Church, will be with us. We are just as certain that till that point, we will have bishops and priests, as we are certain that He will not leave us as orphans. Once time runs out, woe to them who are on the wrong side at that point.


For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

Online Struthio

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That's fine. Either way it means the same thing. Christ promised: I am with you all days, even "usque ad consummationem saeculi".

"consummationem saeculi" is an event, the end of the world is an event, a process to get to that point, yes, but the event itself happens at a point in time, it is therefore a point in time, up until that point in time we know that Christ, the Church, will be with us. We are just as certain that till that point, we will have bishops and priests, as we are certain that He will not leave us as orphans. Once time runs out, woe to them who are on the wrong side at that point.


Dear Stubborn, please forgive me, but I reject your teachings and will stay with the explanations of the Vatican Council and of Our Lord in Mt 24.
It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896

Offline Stubborn

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  • Dear Stubborn, please forgive me, but I reject your teachings and will stay with the explanations of the Vatican Council and of Our Lord in Mt 24.
    I forgive you.

    Mt 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis


    Online forlorn

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  • I rarely agree with Stubborn, but I must here. The consummation of the world means the end of the world. If someone says X will last until the end of time, they mean it will last until the final moment of existence - not that it will cease to exist when the Apocalypse commences. The abomination of desolation signals the beginning of the End Times, but Vatican I more likely suggests that the Papacy will remain until the end of the End Times(i.e the exact moment the world ends) rather than merely the beginning of the End Times. This is further supported by the fact that the "gates of Hell shall not prevail against Her" promise is not qualified with any "until the End Times" or "until the abomination of desolation" or anything similar. 

    Online Struthio

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  • I rarely agree with Stubborn, but I must here. The consummation of the world means the end of the world.

    If someone says X will last until the end of time, they mean it will last until the final moment of existence - not that it will cease to exist when the Apocalypse commences.

    But that same someone is the Vatican Council which does not say "until the end of time". There is a poor translation which says "until the end of time", but that's not the Vatican Council. The Vatican Council, the someone, says "usque ad consummationem saeculi" - until the consummation of the world.

    In Mt 24 the disciples ask Our Lord: and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the world? And the answer of the Lord is that several things will happen until finally the gospel will have been preached all over the world, and then the consummation will come. Then, when we see the abomination of desolation, then the consummation will happen. Then we should read Daniel, watch out, run away, etc.



    The abomination of desolation signals the beginning of the End Times, but Vatican I more likely suggests that the Papacy will remain until the end of the End Times(i.e the exact moment the world ends) rather than merely the beginning of the End Times. This is further supported by the fact that the "gates of Hell shall not prevail against Her" promise is not qualified with any "until the End Times" or "until the abomination of desolation" or anything similar.

    Yes, the "gates of hell"-promise is not limited until the consummation. The gates of hell shall never prevail. But the "gates of hell"-promise does not concern shepherds or the Pope. The Council of Trent teaches that "the gates of Hell shall not prevail against her" means that the gates of hell won't prevail against the Faith as defined in the Creed of the same Council:


    Quote from: Council of Trent, Third Session
    For which cause, this council has thought good, that the Symbol of faith which the holy Roman Church makes use of, –as being that principle wherein all who profess the faith of Christ necessarily agree, and that firm and alone foundation against which the gates of hell shall never prevail,– be expressed in the very same words in which it is read in all the churches. Which Symbol is as follows: [...]
    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/trent/third-session.htm


    The idea that "the gates of Hell shall not prevail" is a statement concerning the papacy is pure fantasy.

    It's better to stick to the clear, authoritative, and definitive teachings of the Council of Trent and the Vatican Council than to invent contradicting ideas out of thin air.
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896

    Online Struthio

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  • @forlorn

    I have mentioned Daniel 9,27 in the opening post. Since you are stubborn, lazy, and verloren, I look it up and put it right in front of your nose:

    Quote from: Daniel 9,27
    [...] and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.
    Source: drbo.org

    to the consummation, and to the end says the prophet.

    As you can see: the consummation happens before the end.

    It is a good idea to follow our Lord and read Daniel, when we see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.


    (The text is about the temple in Jerusalem, destroyed in A.D. 70, not reerected until today.)
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896

    Offline Stubborn

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  • @forlorn

    I have mentioned Daniel 9,27 in the opening post. Since you are stubborn, lazy, and verloren, I look it up and put it right in front of your nose:
    Source: drbo.org

    to the consummation, and to the end says the prophet.

    As you can see: the consummation happens before the end.

    It is a good idea to follow our Lord and read Daniel, when we see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.


    (The text is about the temple in Jerusalem, destroyed in A.D. 70, not reerected until today.)
    What you are doing, is starting with home alonesim, then going through these theological gymnastics in an effort to claim there are no priests and bishops, so as to rationalize home aloneism - all the while claiming that you arrive at your conclusion using "the explanations of the Vatican Council and of Our Lord in Mt 24" - when you are doing no such thing.

    The "consummation and the end" obviously means that the end will be complete or absolute. In other words, there will be nothing left. When the consummation of the world happens, the world will not will be partially consumed, it will be entirely consumed, completely gone, no longer in existence because it will have been consumed completely.

    It does not mean that the consummation has already begun and the priests and bishops (of all people) were the first to go so as to leave us as orphans, hiding in the dark waiting for, what, the end?       

    The cockle and the wheat grow together until the end, when they are separated at the harvest.

    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

     

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