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Author Topic: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?  (Read 6976 times)

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Offline Stanley N

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Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2020, 07:09:33 PM »
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    • (Not sure why the previous doesn't have my text.)

    The priests would presumably have studied the relevant theology more than you, and know the case details.

    I know one "novus ordo ordained" priest who joined the SSPX and was assigned to a chapel. A large part of the chapel would not attend his masses. His position was they should trust the SSPX superiors who wouldn't have assigned him if they had doubts.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #16 on: December 14, 2020, 08:11:10 PM »
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    • Quote
    His position was they should trust the SSPX superiors

    Who are no longer worth of trust, because they are aligned with new-rome.  Their objective to new-rome means they do not have the integrity to judge the new-rites as they should be judged (i.e. with caution).  The new-sspx is no longer unbiased.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #17 on: December 14, 2020, 08:50:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 14, 2020, 08:11:10 PM
    Who are no longer worth of trust, because they are aligned with new-rome.  Their objective to new-rome means they do not have the integrity to judge the new-rites as they should be judged (i.e. with caution).  The new-sspx is no longer unbiased.

    If you don't trust the priests to make decisions about sacramental theology, then you wouldn't be there.

    That said, how many laypersons have sufficient background in sacramental theology - and the details of each case - to decide the priests are wrong?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #18 on: December 14, 2020, 09:02:57 PM »
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    • Quote
    If you don't trust the priests to make decisions about sacramental theology, then you wouldn't be there.
    Honestly, such decisions are to be made by theologians or officials in rome.  The sspx should conditionally-ordain if there are doubts (and with new rites, there are doubts).
    .

    Quote
    That said, how many laypersons have sufficient background in sacramental theology - and the details of each case - to decide the priests are wrong?

    Doubts = conditionally ordain.  That's the approach +ABL took and there's no reason to change.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #19 on: December 14, 2020, 09:12:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 14, 2020, 09:02:57 PM
    Doubts = conditionally ordain.  That's the approach +ABL took and there's no reason to change.

    ABL did not conditionally ordain everyone. I've wondered if there were too many conditional ordinations in certain areas like the US, giving people the notion that all NO priests must be conditionally ordained.

    Many people at this chapel decided not to attend this priest's masses. I doubt any of them had enough training in theology to decide anything about the sacraments, and I am practically certain that none of them knew the facts of the case. Yet they chose to skip their Sunday mass obligation.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #20 on: December 14, 2020, 10:56:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stanley N on December 14, 2020, 08:50:17 PM
    If you don't trust the priests to make decisions about sacramental theology, then you wouldn't be there.

    That said, how many laypersons have sufficient background in sacramental theology - and the details of each case - to decide the priests are wrong?
    Theoretically you might be non dogmatic but still feel that perceived doubtful sacraments should be valid, and thus would feel comfortable attending an old rite ordained SSPX parish but not one with a priest ordained in the new rite.

    I'm neither endorsing nor denying that position, just saying on principle you could take it.
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #21 on: December 15, 2020, 08:40:41 AM »
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    • Quote from: AgnusDei on December 07, 2020, 11:40:34 PM
    Are you willing to bet your soul - or the souls of your children - on the New Rite of Ordination?
    No , i would not and do not. but I do know that the NO priestly ordination "rite" is less doubtful than the Bishop's installation rite which is obviously not valid. 
    For people with nowhere else  to go for sacraments this is a very trying issue and investigation is warranted. I would never advise it without looking into each individual case , but that may be worth doing depending on the circuмstances. If I were in a tight situation  and needed an emergency like extreme unction, I would probably call  a "traditional" priest ordained under the questionable rite if there were no docuмentable valid priests available. ( if I knew that the Bishop that ordained the priest was legitimate)
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #22 on: December 15, 2020, 08:45:55 AM »
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    • Quote
    ABL did not conditionally ordain everyone. I've wondered if there were too many conditional ordinations in certain areas like the US, giving people the notion that all NO priests must be conditionally ordained.
    So when, per your logic, are conditional ordinations required? 
    .
    If the new rites (both episcopal and priestly) are ok, then why did the V2 Modernists change the rites at all?  Bishop Tissier has written MULTIPLE times how the new rites are doubtful and problematic, so how does one untangle the doubt? 
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #23 on: December 15, 2020, 01:40:16 PM »
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    • So the district priests and leadership look into the case of the "N.O." priest, do whatever they do, and eventually assign the priest to a priory where he offers mass publicly, and assigns him a chapel where he also offers mass.

    On what basis would a layperson, not privy to any of the details of the case, doubt this priest isn't a priest?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #24 on: December 15, 2020, 02:15:13 PM »
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    • Quote
    So the district priests and leadership look into the case of the "N.O." priest, do whatever they do, and eventually assign the priest to a priory where he offers mass publicly, and assigns him a chapel where he also offers mass.

    On what basis would a layperson, not privy to any of the details of the case, doubt this priest isn't a priest?

    What is there to "look into"?  The doubt fundamentally lies in the new rites.  The "investigation" would take 5 minutes and is as simple as 2 questions: 
    a.  "Did you get ordained in the new rite?"
    b.  "Was the bishop that ordained you, a bishop in the new rite?"
    .
    If yes to either question, then there is a major doubt.  If yes to both, then there are 2 major doubts. 
    Solution - conditional ordination.
    .
    What other investigation can there be?  The "feelings" of the candidate don't matter.  The "orthodoxy" of the "bishop" or "priest" doesn't matter.  What matters is the flawed new rites were used.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #25 on: December 15, 2020, 06:55:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 15, 2020, 02:15:13 PM
    What is there to "look into"? 
    Fine, it's looked into and the priest is assigned. On what basis would you doubt he's a priest?
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #26 on: December 15, 2020, 07:24:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 15, 2020, 02:15:13 PM
    What other investigation can there be?  ... The "orthodoxy" of the "bishop" or "priest" doesn't matter.  What matters is the flawed new rites were used.

    A side point, but I think you've argued that the NO rites are ambiguous and depend on the intention of the minister. If so, yes, the minister should be looked into.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #27 on: December 15, 2020, 11:23:17 PM »
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    Fine, it's looked into and the priest is assigned. On what basis would you doubt he's a priest?
    It’s an unsolvable problem.  You can’t “look into” someone’s brain years after the “ordination” took place to confirm if the minister 1) had the proper seminary training to understand the proper intention, and 2) was quasi orthodox enough to use such an intention.  
    .
    But this intention issue may not even apply to ordinations/consecration.  +Tissier has repeatedly said that such new rites are flawed on multiple levels.  
    .
    “Supplying a missing intention” only helps the new mass, for the consecration of the host (this per +Ottaviani).   The consecration of the wine could still be invalid if “for all” is used.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #28 on: December 16, 2020, 09:11:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 15, 2020, 11:23:17 PM
    It’s an unsolvable problem.

    The problem is this. The bishop or bishop-equivalent (eg provincial superior) has assigned the priest to your chapel. You either trust the superior did the right thing and go, or you skip Sunday mass for yourself and your family.

    In the latter situation, it looks to me like second-guessing the superior without knowing the facts.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #29 on: December 16, 2020, 10:49:03 AM »
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    • Quote
    The problem is this. The bishop or bishop-equivalent (eg provincial superior) has assigned the priest to your chapel. You either trust the superior did the right thing and go, or you skip Sunday mass for yourself and your family.
    .
    In the latter situation, it looks to me like second-guessing the superior without knowing the facts.
    The only "right thing" to do is to conditionally ordain.  Anything less is just a guess and canon law strictly forbids, under pain of sin, attendance at doubtful masses.  Just because a "superior" says they don't have a problem with the new rites, or that their "investigation" cleared up their doubts, that doesn't change the fact that the only way to know if a new rite priest is really a priest, is to have an insight into the mind of the consecrating bishop (assuming he was an actual bishop).  Who can know an intention, except God?  It's an unsolvable problem.  Conditional ordinations exist to remedy these kinds of problems and doubts.
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