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Author Topic: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?  (Read 6952 times)

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Offline Cryptinox

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Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
« on: October 25, 2020, 05:20:16 PM »
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    • Hello does anyone here know of any FSSP or ICKSP priests who were ordained by bishops consecrated in the traditional rite other than the ones ordained by Lefebvre? I am asking since I realized that Francis Arinze, a conservative prelate, was consecrated in 1965. There are photos of him offering a valid pontifical high mass too but no photos of him ordaining priests for FSSP or ICKSP. It is possible there are some who were ordained validly in the 80s or 90s back when the bishops consecrated in the traditional were in their 50s, 60s, or 70s.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #1 on: October 25, 2020, 07:58:23 PM »
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    • I know for a fact that not one of the non-Lefebvre ordinations of the Fraternity of St. Peter were done by an old ceremony consecrated bishop, which is rather odd and stands out as a red flag. It had to be done purposely. I have to assume that it is the same with The Institute of Christ the King.

    Though, a Fraternity priest is in a safer position than the Novus Ordo ordained because the Fraternity priest was ordained with the old rite of ordination, he still has a strike against him because the bishop that ordained him may not be a bishop. Personally, I would go to priests where I have no doubts about their ordination.
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    Offline Bellato

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #2 on: October 25, 2020, 09:49:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cryptinox on October 25, 2020, 05:20:16 PM
    Hello does anyone here know of any FSSP or ICKSP priests who were ordained by bishops consecrated in the traditional rite other than the ones ordained by Lefebvre? I am asking since I realized that Francis Arinze, a conservative prelate, was consecrated in 1965. There are photos of him offering a valid pontifical high mass too but no photos of him ordaining priests for FSSP or ICKSP. It is possible there are some who were ordained validly in the 80s or 90s back when the bishops consecrated in the traditional were in their 50s, 60s, or 70s.
    If Bishop Arinze ordained any of them, they would be valid, but I am not aware of him ordaining for FSSP or ICKSP.   I treat them as though they are invalid, as they have used since their beginning Novus Ordo bishops for their orders.  

    The only ones that are definitely valid are the originals in the FSSP that were ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre but there are not many of them.  The other problem that arises if you find one of the valid FSSP priests is that if more than one staffs a church, how do you know which priest consecrated the hosts in the tabernacle?  

    It's a mess.  

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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #3 on: October 26, 2020, 05:31:58 AM »
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    • The only one I know of is

    Rev. Father John Rizzo
    Featured here
    https://www.newcastlelatinmass.org/about
    I presume he was ordained by ++ Lefebvre.

    Then there are SSPX priests who have fallen in with diocesan parishes, as Fr Rizzo has done.
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    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #4 on: October 26, 2020, 06:54:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on October 25, 2020, 07:58:23 PM
    I know for a fact that not one of the non-Lefebvre ordinations of the Fraternity of St. Peter were done by an old ceremony consecrated bishop, which is rather odd and stands out as a red flag. It had to be done purposely. I have to assume that it is the same with The Institute of Christ the King.

    Though, a Fraternity priest is in a safer position than the Novus Ordo ordained because the Fraternity priest was ordained with the old rite of ordination, he still has a strike against him because the bishop that ordained him may not be a bishop. Personally, I would go to priests where I have no doubts about their ordination.
    How do you know this? Do you know if Bp. Rene Gracida has ordained any priests? I have a friend in Texas whose chapel goes to him to get holy oils blessed because one of his co-consecrators opted to have the traditional rite used to consecrate him. It really is sad that Arinze has not ordained any priests for FSSP or ICKSP. He could do so much good.
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    Offline AgnusDei

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #5 on: December 05, 2020, 11:56:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on October 25, 2020, 07:58:23 PM
    I know for a fact that not one of the non-Lefebvre ordinations of the Fraternity of St. Peter were done by an old ceremony consecrated bishop, which is rather odd and stands out as a red flag. It had to be done purposely. I have to assume that it is the same with The Institute of Christ the King.

    Though, a Fraternity priest is in a safer position than the Novus Ordo ordained because the Fraternity priest was ordained with the old rite of ordination, he still has a strike against him because the bishop that ordained him may not be a bishop. Personally, I would go to priests where I have no doubts about their ordination.
    Of course, it was done purposefully, just like how the FSSP vow includes subjection to Vatican II and requiring all FSSP priests to celebrate or serve at a Novus Ordo "Mass" once per year, witnessed by a the local NO bishop.
    I stay the Hell away from NO "trads" for the sole reason of the New Rite of Ordination. If anyone has a list of former SSPX priests currently serving in the FSSP, I would be interested in keeping it in my files because those guys make valid sacraments. 
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    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #6 on: December 06, 2020, 01:31:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: AgnusDei on December 05, 2020, 11:56:42 PM
    Of course, it was done purposefully, just like how the FSSP vow includes subjection to Vatican II and requiring all FSSP priests to celebrate or serve at a Novus Ordo "Mass" once per year, witnessed by a the local NO bishop.
    I stay the Hell away from NO "trads" for the sole reason of the New Rite of Ordination. If anyone has a list of former SSPX priests currently serving in the FSSP, I would be interested in keeping it in my files because those guys make valid sacraments.

    Reminds me of Fernando Rifan's consecration. It feels like they deliberately chose to make the new rite bishop the principal consecrator. I watched the video and the only person saying the essential form was the new rite bishop, not Bp. Lincio Rangel. So the only officially approved tridentine episcopal consecration was most likely invalid. If I were to go to an indult said by an ex SSPX priest I would not take Communion since you don't know if it was consecrated by the doubtful assistant pastor or not.  There is an ICKSP priest in my state who was ordained at 21 or 23 so I wonder if he was part of another trad group with valid orders before joining ICKSP. Very ironic how FSSP priests take the Oath Against Modernism too.
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #7 on: December 06, 2020, 08:30:13 AM »
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    • I know an FSSP priest ordained by JPll. No matter what you think of him (JPll), he was ordained a Bishop before 1968 so his Episcopal consecration is valid. His ordinations, even under the new rite are probably ok as well as the new rite of ordination has far less objections  to it than the Bishop's consecrations.
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    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #8 on: December 07, 2020, 09:35:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: josefamenendez on December 06, 2020, 08:30:13 AM
    I know an FSSP priest ordained by JPll. No matter what you think of him (JPll), he was ordained a Bishop before 1968 so his Episcopal consecration is valid. His ordinations, even under the new rite are probably ok as well as the new rite of ordination has far less objections  to it than the Bishop's consecrations.
    What is his name? Where was he ordained? Was he ordained for the novus ordo in the new rite or was JP II ordaining FSSP priests in the traditional rite? He could be like John Zuhlsdorf who says the trad mass but was "ordained" in the new rite by JP II.
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    Offline AgnusDei

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #9 on: December 07, 2020, 11:40:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: josefamenendez on December 06, 2020, 08:30:13 AM
    I know an FSSP priest ordained by JPll. No matter what you think of him (JPll), he was ordained a Bishop before 1968 so his Episcopal consecration is valid. His ordinations, even under the new rite are probably ok as well as the new rite of ordination has far less objections  to it than the Bishop's consecrations.
    Are you willing to bet your soul - or the souls of your children - on the New Rite of Ordination?
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    Offline joe17

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #10 on: December 08, 2020, 11:22:37 PM »
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    • Concerning the ordinations, I can say that in the early days, there were a few that were ordained in the old rite by true bishops.  One that is docuмented is Fr Frank Quoex, ordained in 1992 of ICKSP by "Cardinal" Pietro Pallazzini, who was consecrated in 1962 http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2010/01/life-work-and-ambitions-of-abbe-franck.html#.X9BZedhKiM8
     Also, currently stationed in Sulphur, Louisiana is Rev Canon Jean-Marie Moreau who was ordained by  Bp Pallazzini as well on Oct 7, 1992. https://tlmofsf.com/2015/10/07/happy-23rd-ordination-anniversary-canon-moreau-ad-multos-annos/

     Besides the few from the SSPX, a few, old-rite ordained priests joined up.  In the Fraternity, Fr James Buckley, ordained in 1965, serves as spiritual director at their American seminary.  He is a good Ignatian retreat director.  Fr Irwin, who is recently deceased, was old rite.  There may have had a few more, but time has marched on.  I know that in the Coeur d'Alene area, an elderly priest says Mass on occasion at their chapel, having had maintained his own chapel before in Oklahoma.

     I can recall reading in "The Latin Mass Magazine", from when they started, through the 90's, that they would make mention of ordinations of these groups, and who was ordaining them.  It may be one of the best sources, if you can find copies of them, of what priest was ordained by what bishop, and when, telling you who is a priest, and who is not, or is at least doubtful.  Hard to find on the net much about the ordinations that happened before the 2000's,. Perhaps "Christian Order" from their early days would be another source.  One can always ask, but some get touchy about that.
    As alluded to by someone above, it is can be more dangerous than Russian roulette.

     Just thought I would offer this.
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    Offline AgnusDei

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #11 on: December 13, 2020, 05:25:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: joe17 on December 08, 2020, 11:22:37 PM
    One can always ask, but some get touchy about that.
    Obviously, only the ones with doubtful ordinations get touchy. Otherwise, they should say it loud and proud. Whenever a priest doesn't answer the question, RUN.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #12 on: December 13, 2020, 05:45:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cryptinox on December 07, 2020, 09:35:45 AM
    What is his name? Where was he ordained? Was he ordained for the novus ordo in the new rite or was JP II ordaining FSSP priests in the traditional rite? He could be like John Zuhlsdorf who says the trad mass but was "ordained" in the new rite by JP II.

    Father Carlos Cassavantes was also "ordained" by "Saint" JP2 "the Great", but he was later conditionally ordained  :laugh1:
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    Offline Merry

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #13 on: December 13, 2020, 06:12:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on October 26, 2020, 05:31:58 AM
    The only one I know of is

    Rev. Father John Rizzo
    Featured here
    https://www.newcastlelatinmass.org/about
    I presume he was ordained by ++ Lefebvre.

    Then there are SSPX priests who have fallen in with diocesan parishes, as Fr Rizzo has done.
    Fr. John Rizzo was ordained by Arch. Lefebvre.  I was at the ordination.  It was in the Ridgefield chapel, held before it had been completed, but was good enough to have services.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Validly ordained FSSP and ICKSP priests?
    « Reply #14 on: December 14, 2020, 05:56:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: AgnusDei on December 13, 2020, 05:25:43 PM
    Obviously, only the ones with doubtful ordinations get touchy. Otherwise, they should say it loud and proud. Whenever a priest doesn't answer the question, RUN.
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