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Author Topic: Validity of Ortho confirmations?  (Read 1138 times)

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Offline Cryptinox

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Validity of Ortho confirmations?
« on: September 28, 2021, 05:20:04 PM »
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  • I am curious if the validly confirm people as most of the time priests confirm in their sect. For a priest to confirm validly, he needs jurisdiction. However, I have never heard about orthos being reconfirmed when being received into the Church so this makes me wonder.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Validity of Ortho confirmations?
    « Reply #1 on: September 28, 2021, 06:08:33 PM »
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  • I am curious if the validly confirm people as most of the time priests confirm in their sect. For a priest to confirm validly, he needs jurisdiction. However, I have never heard about orthos being reconfirmed when being received into the Church so this makes me wonder.

    Avoid the whole Orthodox schismatical sect at all costs.

    Act as if they don't exist, and you shall do well. There is nothing they have that ANY of us needs.

    If you are that isolated from real Catholic (Traditional) priests, then rely on God. Not some schismatic. God will reward your faith, for rejecting schism on principle.

    Do you really thing God is -- IN ANY CASE -- going to hinge someone's salvation upon relying on a schismatic for absolution, etc? I completely reject that notion.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Validity of Ortho confirmations?
    « Reply #2 on: September 28, 2021, 06:46:32 PM »
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  • Avoid the whole Orthodox schismatical sect at all costs.

    Act as if they don't exist, and you shall do well. There is nothing they have that ANY of us needs.

    If you are that isolated from real Catholic (Traditional) priests, then rely on God. Not some schismatic. God will reward your faith, for rejecting schism on principle.

    Do you really thing God is -- IN ANY CASE -- going to hinge someone's salvation upon relying on a schismatic for absolution, etc? I completely reject that notion.

    I took the OP's question as more academic in nature, rather than seeing if Orthodox sacraments (assuming they'd even give them to a Catholic) could ever be an option for traditional Catholics.

    My understanding is, that a chrismated Orthodox (they typically chrismate in tandem with infant baptism) does not have to be confirmed when becoming a Catholic.  No doubt the baptism itself is valid.  I'm just assuming --- and you know what happens when one "assumes" --- that the chrismation is accepted at face value, as having conferred the gifts of the Holy Ghost at the time the chrismation took place.  

    My curiosity is now up, and I'll check out my Woywod/Smith commentary, just not right now.  I am gradually moving some of my more important books out of the bungalow, and I've already brought WS over here, just today I got the Scripture concordance TAN used to sell, as well as the Roman Catechism and Fr Meagher's How Christ Said The First Mass.  Jone and Ott are now here too.

    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Validity of Ortho confirmations?
    « Reply #3 on: September 28, 2021, 07:21:43 PM »
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  • I took the OP's question as more academic in nature, rather than seeing if Orthodox sacraments (assuming they'd even give them to a Catholic) could ever be an option for traditional Catholics.

    My understanding is, that a chrismated Orthodox (they typically chrismate in tandem with infant baptism) does not have to be confirmed when becoming a Catholic.  No doubt the baptism itself is valid.  I'm just assuming --- and you know what happens when one "assumes" --- that the chrismation is accepted at face value, as having conferred the gifts of the Holy Ghost at the time the chrismation took place. 

    My curiosity is now up, and I'll check out my Woywod/Smith commentary, just not right now.  I am gradually moving some of my more important books out of the bungalow, and I've already brought WS over here, just today I got the Scripture concordance TAN used to sell, as well as the Roman Catechism and Fr Meagher's How Christ Said The First Mass.  Jone and Ott are now here too.
    Yes I was asking an academic question. I hate Orthodoxy way more than many people.

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Validity of Ortho confirmations?
    « Reply #4 on: September 29, 2021, 05:17:11 AM »
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  • Yes, Orthodox chrismation is unquestionably valid, so too Eastern Catholic chrismation.

    Faculties are required in the Latin Church sui juris for a priest to confirm validly. However, this is not the case in the various Eastern Churches sui juris. The sacrament developed differently in the West and East. In the West, confirmation is tied to the direct action of the bishop in person. In the East, the sacrament is tied to the episcopally-consecrated oil used for chrismation. The episcopal action is mediated through the priest.

    It can be a challenge for many Latin Catholics to grasp that the "una Ecclesia" we confess in the creed is, in fact, 24 separate Churches with their own identities and histories. These Churches, of which the Latin Church is overwhelmingly the largest, are joined through communion of faith while remaining distinct, e.g., the Ukrainian Catholic Church, the Maronite Catholic Church, the Coptic Catholic Church, the Syro-Malabar Cstholuc Church, etc. Latin Catholics tend to think of the "una Ecclesia" as the Latin Church alone with Eastern Catholics as oddities whose identity is simply that of a different liturgical Rite, not a different, yet fully-Catholic Church.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Validity of Ortho confirmations?
    « Reply #5 on: September 29, 2021, 05:37:58 PM »
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  • Yes, Orthodox chrismation is unquestionably valid, so too Eastern Catholic chrismation.

    Faculties are required in the Latin Church sui juris for a priest to confirm validly. However, this is not the case in the various Eastern Churches sui juris. The sacrament developed differently in the West and East. In the West, confirmation is tied to the direct action of the bishop in person. In the East, the sacrament is tied to the episcopally-consecrated oil used for chrismation. The episcopal action is mediated through the priest.

    It can be a challenge for many Latin Catholics to grasp that the "una Ecclesia" we confess in the creed is, in fact, 24 separate Churches with their own identities and histories. These Churches, of which the Latin Church is overwhelmingly the largest, are joined through communion of faith while remaining distinct, e.g., the Ukrainian Catholic Church, the Maronite Catholic Church, the Coptic Catholic Church, the Syro-Malabar Cstholuc Church, etc. Latin Catholics tend to think of the "una Ecclesia" as the Latin Church alone with Eastern Catholics as oddities whose identity is simply that of a different liturgical Rite, not a different, yet fully-Catholic Church.
    I'm well aware of this historical fact, but as things have turned out with the Orthodox schism, the Eastern churches in union with Rome tend to be very small, "rump" churches, and many (if not most) of them are "uniate" churches created as smaller analogues of their corresponding schismatic Orthodox churches.  The Maronites are a separate case, and the Melkites seem to view themselves as a kind of via media between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, almost (and I'm sure I'm going to butcher this) like "a part of the Orthodox Church in union with Rome".  Indeed, you then had the Antiochian Orthodox Church which was a schism from the Melkites.

    Offline Todd The Trad

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    Re: Validity of Ortho confirmations?
    « Reply #6 on: October 03, 2021, 11:11:39 PM »
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  • If one was Confirmed/Chrismated by an Orthodox priest, wouldn't that be the same as being Confirmed by an SSPX/Sede/independent priest as far as not having been granted permission to Confirm by a Bishop with jurisdiction? I realize that Eastern Catholic priests ordinarily Confirm without needing to seek permission from their Bishop, however the Orthodox priests are schismatic therefore not apart of the Eastern Catholic Church. I don't see how an Orthodox priest's Confirmation would be any different then say, an independent priest attempting to do the same.
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    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: Validity of Ortho confirmations?
    « Reply #7 on: October 04, 2021, 04:42:04 AM »
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  • They've always been considered valid. Eastern priests do not need jurisdiction as the sacrament of confirmation was never restricted in these churches as it was restricted by the Latin church
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا


    Offline Todd The Trad

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    Re: Validity of Ortho confirmations?
    « Reply #8 on: October 04, 2021, 09:51:54 AM »
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  • But eastern orthodox priests are not even in the Catholic Church. They are not a part of the Eastern Catholic Church anymore than an SSPX or independent priest, right?
    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!

    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: Validity of Ortho confirmations?
    « Reply #9 on: October 04, 2021, 12:02:30 PM »
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  • It doesn't matter, jurisdiction is a requirement of the Latin church for Latin clerics doing confirmation. Trad Latin priests are relying on supplied jurisdiction. Any comparison is apple to orange
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline Todd The Trad

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    Re: Validity of Ortho confirmations?
    « Reply #10 on: October 04, 2021, 12:11:02 PM »
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  • I understand, but what I'm saying is that Orthodox priests are not a part of the Catholic Church at all so why would the Eastern Catholic laws be applied to them as oppose to the Latin Church laws(considering they're outside the Church being schismatics and heretics)? They're not a part of the Eastern Catholic Church... 
    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!


    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: Validity of Ortho confirmations?
    « Reply #11 on: October 04, 2021, 03:42:11 PM »
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  • Eastern catholics follow the same canons as the orthodox normally, the only difference may be found in portions of the new code of eastern churches. The current code states that each particular churches law holds as binding unless there's no law for something covered in the new code. Basically they made the new code to cover overlap between each sui uris church law
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline Todd The Trad

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    Re: Validity of Ortho confirmations?
    « Reply #12 on: October 04, 2021, 07:35:31 PM »
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  • What I'm confused about is how do Orthodox priests benefit from the ability to Confirm when they'e their own schismatic church? Does Eastern Catholic law apply to them because their Holy Orders derive from Eastern lines, even though schismatic, whereas an independent latin rite priest for example, derives his Orders from Latin lines, so he's subject to latin law?   
    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Validity of Ortho confirmations?
    « Reply #13 on: October 05, 2021, 06:08:45 AM »
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  • I see two questions here:

    (1) Which sacraments require faculties from a priest's ordinary for validity (not liciety), barring danger of death?  Baptism, the Eucharist, matrimony (of two non-Catholics marrying outside the Church), no.  Penance, yes.  Extreme Unction, are faculties required, or is this a "stand-alone" sacrament as is the Eucharist?  Confirmation, not sure, anybody?  Holy orders, yes (though a priest would never be conferring holy orders, unless it were that obscure situation in Ott's FOCD about the English abbots ordaining other priests, and certain Eastern European situations under communism).

    (2) Do Orthodox bishops retain any authority, by virtue of their own orders (which are presumably valid), to give any faculties to any priest at all?  IOW, is union with Rome necessary for bishops to have the authority one normally associates with a bishop?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Validity of Ortho confirmations?
    « Reply #14 on: October 05, 2021, 11:35:38 AM »
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  • I believe the answer here would be similar to the other thread.  Confirmation isn't so much directly a question of jurisdiction, but rather of a priestly power that's been "bound" and gets activated by authorization from a bishop.  Nevertheless, the authorizing bishop needs to have the authority to do so.  I don't believe some auxiliary bishop could enable or activate that latent power.  So ... my personal opinion is that confirmation administered by an Orthodox bishop would be valid, but those performed by priests would be doubtful, since there's no legitimate authority to activate the power.  Confessions heard by the Orthodox should be presumed invalid ... although perhaps if a Catholic or someone so ignorant as to still formally be a Catholic sought the Sacrament, then I could see the Church supplying the necessary jurisdiction or power.  So, for instance, Pope St. Pius X permitted Catholics to receive Sacraments from the Orthodox when they lived in territories without any access to Catholic clergy.  By that very act, St. Pius X endowed such acts with the necessary authority to render them valid.