Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => The Sacred: Catholic Liturgy, Chant, Prayers => Topic started by: Aspirin Annie on April 17, 2017, 08:30:00 AM
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I usually just lurk. LOL. But I do have a question. I hope this is the right place. If not, redirect me to the correct forum.
Both of my boys are currently not going to church, but one is now asking all kinds of questions, and I am pretty savvy since I converted from Southern Baptist to Novus Ordo and then went into Tradition, but his questions are still above my pay grade. :o
He was asking specifically last night about 1 Corinthians 14 (I believe) about women not speaking in church and about the passages concerning speaking in tongues. He was insisting all of Corinthians was anti-Catholic. ::)
I know I studied all of this when I became a Catholic, but I can't remember what I learned or from where it's been too long ago.
Thanks in advance if you have any suggestions.
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Because it has a lot of explanations, you should use the Haydock Bible. (http://haydock1859.tripod.com/)
1 Cor 14:34 Let women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted to them to speak, but to be subject, *as also the law saith.
Ver 34. Let women be silent, and not speak at all in public Church-meetings: and if they would ask any thing, let them ask it at home. (Witham)
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And were you the only one in the family to convert?
What affiliations have your boys?
What about your husband?
All these things would make a big difference to the answers.
In what way is "all of Corinthians anti-Catholic" and does he think that is a good thing or a bad thing?
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Will your boy/son do as you are doing, posting on this forum? Let him join on this forum as well.
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I usually just lurk. LOL. But I do have a question. I hope this is the right place. If not, redirect me to the correct forum.
Both of my boys are currently not going to church, but one is now asking all kinds of questions, and I am pretty savvy since I converted from Southern Baptist to Novus Ordo and then went into Tradition, but his questions are still above my pay grade. :o
He was asking specifically last night about 1 Corinthians 14 (I believe) about women not speaking in church and about the passages concerning speaking in tongues. He was insisting all of Corinthians was anti-Catholic. ::)
I know I studied all of this when I became a Catholic, but I can't remember what I learned or from where it's been too long ago.
Thanks in advance if you have any suggestions.
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One way of understanding the "speaking in tongues" references is to realize that initially, to enable the Church to grow quickly, when the Apostles gave a sermon to a crowd of people, the speaker would use one language, his own, but various people in hearing him would understand in his own language. This is not something that can be explained by natural means, for it was miraculous. And it enabled the Apostles to be very convincing since the very act of hearing them speak was a mystical experience.
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Therefore, to attempt to duplicate this today would likely be rather futile, since we cannot invoke miracles just by imitating what others have done in the past. And it has resulted in a lot of misunderstanding of what it means to "speak in tongues." Charismatics and some Protestants, for example, think that rolling around on the floor and grunting like animals constitutes this phenomenon, which is ridiculous.
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Thank you all.
Stubborn - I will look into the Haydock. We typically read the Douay-Rheims and mine does have some explanation but not a lot.
Songbird - I have considered mentioning to him to join here. He is old enough to discuss these sorts of things with other people at this point.
Nadir - I converted in the early years of my marriage. My husband was a cradle Catholic who went back to the church for a while after we married. We were Baptist when we married. He no longer attends church at all and has not in some time. So I have been the parent who has taken the boys to church, taught them religious instruction at home while we homeschooled, etc. Not ideal, I know, but it is what it is. You do what you have to do.
He and his brother have always been Catholic, and we have been in tradition since they were six. (I hesitate to say this because people may recognize who I am, not that it matters. But they are twins.) He and his brother attended catechism classes at church. They were conditionally rebaptized, did First Communion and Confirmation in the traditional rite. They were altar boys for close to eight years and for most of that time haunted the door to see if they could "sub". My younger son insisted he was going to be a priest for many, many years, although that idea seems to have fallen away from him at the moment. (That idea seemed to go about the time he discovered girls.) Both boys played "Mass" growing up more than anything else. Younger son is not going to church either. Both boys went until about a year and a half ago. There were a number of factors that drove them away, some having to actually do with internal issues at church itself.
FYI: We are surrounded by Protestants, but neither boy has an inclination that direction. Both have clearly stated they make less sense than Catholics.
Nadir and An Even Seven - We have to sit down and speak about the Corinthians issue further and I will get clarification. I was kind of surprised he had even read it to be honest. He had come home late that night from working at the fire station and said he wanted to talk more later. So we will. He is trying to finish his course work here at home to graduate as well as working, so our times to talk are not always consistent.
Neil Obstat - So, am I understanding this right? (And I may have known this but forgot along the way.) Tongues was really just other languages, not the babbling business that Assembly of God, Pentecostals, and others do at times?
I suggested to him that he is trying to reason his way back into the church, and he agreed. In fact, he said "Exactly!" Which is fine and dandy, it was how I got there, but I explained to him there are just some things you have to take on faith.
Thank you again, all. Sorry for the length.
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Here is a link (https://www.dropbox.com/s/w8z3hq1akr96cvr/Pentecost-And-The-Spread-Of-Christianity-Speaking-In-Tongues-And-The-Way-Of-Salvation%205_26_85-194.mp3?dl=0)to about a 19 minute long sermon given back in May of 1985 where Fr. Wathen talks about speaking in tongues. He beautifully in brief tells about the beginning happenings of the Church at Pentecost, including the so called "speaking in tongues" - which is actually not so, the truth is that Apostles spoke in their own language, the people understood the Apostles even though the people spoke other tongues.
Anyway, it's worth listening too, even download to your desk top - the part about speaking in tongues begins about 8:47.
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Thank you, Annie, for answering in such detail.
We must pray for your husband to come back to the sincere practice of the Catholic faith. Your relationship with your boys sounds very good.
About tongues: yes, it really is a matter of the preacher speaking his own tongue and somehow God allows the hearer to receive it in his own language. in the 14th century this happened when St Vincent Ferrer spoke his Valencian toungue and was understood by all who heard him in their own native tongue. God does this when He wants to expedite His Word to people who are in dire need.
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Here is a link (https://www.dropbox.com/s/w8z3hq1akr96cvr/Pentecost-And-The-Spread-Of-Christianity-Speaking-In-Tongues-And-The-Way-Of-Salvation%205_26_85-194.mp3?dl=0)to about a 19 minute long sermon given back in May of 1985 where Fr. Wathen talks about speaking in tongues. He beautifully in brief tells about the beginning happenings of the Church at Pentecost, including the so called "speaking in tongues" - which is actually not so, the truth is that Apostles spoke in their own language, the people understood the Apostles even though the people spoke other tongues.
Anyway, it's worth listening too, even download to your desk top - the part about speaking in tongues begins about 8:47.
Oohhhh. Thank you. I will do that. :)
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Thank you, Annie, for answering in such detail.
We must pray for your husband to come back to the sincere practice of the Catholic faith. Your relationship with your boys sounds very good.
About tongues: yes, it really is a matter of the preacher speaking his own tongue and somehow God allows the hearer to receive it in his own language. in the 14th century this happened when St Vincent Ferrer spoke his Valencian toungue and was understood by all who heard him in their own native tongue. God does this when He wants to expedite His Word to people who are in dire need.
Well, I type fast and can be wordy, lol, so I have to be careful not to tell more than people want to hear.
Yes, I agree about hubby. But he is a tough nut to crack to say the least.
And yes, the boys and I are close, and they are good kids. Their idea of a good time is spending Friday and Saturday night at the fire station running calls or volunteering at EMS here in our little town. I haven't had a problem with girls (after they both had bad breakups at 16 1/2). We dodged the bullet on drugs and so far on drinking. Both so far have good driving records and a lot of common sense. Praying hard for their return to their faith as well.
Thank you about the tongues. That clears that up. I probably knew that before but forgot. ::) The brain can just only hold so much.
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Thank you, Annie, for answering in such detail.
We must pray for your husband to come back to the sincere practice of the Catholic faith. Your relationship with your boys sounds very good.
About tongues: yes, it really is a matter of the preacher speaking his own tongue and somehow God allows the hearer to receive it in his own language. in the 14th century this happened when St Vincent Ferrer spoke his Valencian toungue and was understood by all who heard him in their own native tongue. God does this when He wants to expedite His Word to people who are in dire need.
'Listening with ears' is indeed new to me, but it is as good an explanation as 'speaking with tongues.' Indeed it reminds me of a French priest over here in Ireland who for years gave his Sunday homilies in English. While we all listened and could understand the odd word or two, it was impossible to understand the homily.
Then one day we brought a French student to Mass with us, over here learning English. After Mass she said, 'Oh how I wish I could speak perfect English like that priest!' You see she was listening with French ears.
QED.
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Stubborn - I will look into the Haydock. We typically read the Douay-Rheims and mine does have some explanation but not a lot.
Just so that you understand, the Haydock Bible is the Douay-Rheims. It is the footnotes and other explanations it contains by Haydock that make it the Haydock Bible. The Douay-Rheims is actually the only English translation that has been approved for Catholics but there are a variety of published Douay-Rheims translations in which contain different footnotes. One version that is commonly considered a very good one is the Haydock.
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Just so that you understand, the Haydock Bible is the Douay-Rheims. It is the footnotes and other explanations it contains by Haydock that make it the Haydock Bible. The Douay-Rheims is actually the only English translation that has been approved for Catholics but there are a variety of published Douay-Rheims translations in which contain different footnotes. One version that is commonly considered a very good one is the Haydock.
Well, uh no (she chokes on her coffee and reddens) - I did not know that. Thanks for clearing that up. You learn somthing new every day.
Oh - I meant I knew the Douay-Rheims was only approved version - didn't know about the Haydock being a version with explanations and notes.
Thanks!
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This seems to be one of those "nit-picky" questions people ask in order to lambaste the Catholic Church. The core question to ask is: Where did scripture come from? When the Corinthians were speaking in tongues St Paul had not written his letter, and even after St Paul wrote his letter his letter was not considered "scripture" per se. What we know as the modern bible was assembled by St Jerome around the year 400 (who also translated all the books into the Latin Vulgate, the definitive version of the Bible re-affirmed by the Council of Trent), and codified by the Council of Ephesus in 431. The Old Testament was recognized as the Septuagint by the apostles, but even they included quotes by apocryphal books such as Enoch and Baruch II, which are not canonical books of scripture. (As you can see, this is complicated.) The question you should ask your children is on what authority did Luther and the other "reformers" tamper with and otherwise modify the received and approved scriptures, which were the work of the Holy Ghost. Contrary to what many Protestants attest, Scripture did not form the Church, rather it was the Church that formed scripture.
Our lady of Fatima, pray for us, you are our only hope.