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Author Topic: Unbaptized Nephew  (Read 1258 times)

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Offline Todd The Trad

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Unbaptized Nephew
« on: October 26, 2021, 12:23:50 PM »
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    • So I have a sister living in California(I'm in Ohio) who lives with her "boyfriend" with their 1 year old son (my nephew). They are unmarried, obviously living in adultery. They do not practice any religion and have no interest in doing so. My sister was baptized and received her first communion as a child but never has actually embraced the faith (hasn't been to Mass in at least 10 years). Of course I have spoken to them and pray for their conversion, but like I said, they have no interest right now unfortunately. I am concerned about the salvation of their son. He has not been baptized and his parents have no interest in or plans to have him baptized. I personally hold to the theological belief that unbaptized children go to limbo (at least a strong possibility). Obviously, this concerns me greatly. What should I do, if anything? Should I go to California and baptize him myself? This could be a matter of limbo or heaven, especially if he were to pass away in his childhood via illness, some sort of accident, or even the upcoming chastisement. As things stand now, either I go and baptize him or he will not be baptized. Of course I'm going to speak with my priest about this but I'd love some advice from you all here as well. Thank you.  
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: Unbaptized Nephew
    « Reply #1 on: October 26, 2021, 12:34:45 PM »
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    • If the parents are not Catholic and have no intention to raise the child Catholic, the normal thing is to not allow the child to be baptized unless he is in danger of death. Priests are not supposed to baptize babies if the parents do not promise to raise them Catholic (though I imagine this is no longer the case in the Novus Ordo). I guess the idea is that with non-Catholic parents the child will probably be damned anyway so it is better to let the child be damned without baptism because the seal would lead to greater suffering in hell. Otherwise why not Baptize every baby?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Unbaptized Nephew
    « Reply #2 on: October 26, 2021, 12:43:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matto on October 26, 2021, 12:34:45 PM
    If the parents are not Catholic and have no intention to raise the child Catholic, the normal thing is to not allow the child to be baptized unless he is in danger of death. Priests are not supposed to baptize babies if the parents do not promise to raise them Catholic (though I imagine this is no longer the case in the Novus Ordo). I guess the idea is that with non-catholic parents the child will probably be damned anyway so it is better to let the child be damned without baptism because the seal would lead to greater suffering in hell. Otherwise why not Baptize every baby?
    That's the way I understand it as well.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Unbaptized Nephew
    « Reply #3 on: October 26, 2021, 12:48:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Todd The Trad on October 26, 2021, 12:23:50 PM
    What should I do, if anything? Should I go to California and baptize him myself?

    No, you should not.

    You have no expectation the child will receive any religious education. You also don't have any authority over the child with regard to sacraments.

    Additionally, while laypersons can baptise, they normally shouldn't, outside danger of death.

    If your sister is not actively opposed to baptism, see if she is willing to let you (or someone closer) do religious education and take the child to Liturgy.

    And pray for the child.
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Unbaptized Nephew
    « Reply #4 on: October 26, 2021, 01:07:21 PM »
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    • OK- please hear me out. Wouldn't it be better that a child be baptized even if there is no assurance that they will be raised in the faith?
    For the first seven or so years of the child's life, or until they reach the age of reason, a baptised child under any circuмstance would go to Heaven, as they have been cleansed of original sin. Afterwards, they are subect to the penalties of sin, but there is still the grace of baptism present, which I think would more likely predispose them to seek the Faith later, opposed to the non-baptized that still carry original sin.
    Why would it be wrong for an innocent child under the age of reason to go to Heaven instead of Limbo?
    (Of course it would be preferable if it were guaranteed that they were brought up in the Faith- that goes without saying)


    So.. if you did baptize the child, the baptism would be valid but not licit, and the person doing the baptizing would be the one incurring the sin of disobedience, violating the rules of the Sacrament.....I'm not sure what the sin would be and if it would be mortal. This has always vexxed me.
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: Unbaptized Nephew
    « Reply #5 on: October 26, 2021, 01:11:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: josefamenendez on October 26, 2021, 01:07:21 PM
    OK- please hear me out. Wouldn't it be better that a child be baptized even if there is no assurance that they will be raised in the faith?
    I see that reasoning and it makes sense. But I know that the Church did not baptize babies whose parents did not agree to raise the child Catholic, in recent times before Vatican II at least around here. I don't know if she ever did in the past.
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Unbaptized Nephew
    « Reply #6 on: October 26, 2021, 01:16:16 PM »
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    • I would like to understand the spiritual logic of NOT baptizing under those circuмstances.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Unbaptized Nephew
    « Reply #7 on: October 26, 2021, 01:24:23 PM »
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    • Sadly, except in imminent danger of death, you cannot do that.  You have no authority to make that decision on behalf of the child, I know, that sounds wrong, but so far as I am aware, surreptitious baptism of infants whose parents do not want to have them baptized, is simply not allowed.  If there is any traditional defense of doing so, again, outside of danger of death, I am unaware of it and will stand corrected.

    I know it is liberal Red Sea propaganda, but this actually happened (albeit in an Episcopal church) in an episode of All In The Family where Archie feared for the soul of his grandson Joey.  Again, AITF was propaganda, but some of its scenes were done incredibly well, and the show did have its good points.  This is one of them.



    That was probably an invalid baptism (just rubbing Joey's forehead with a wet finger), but granting poetic license, God bless him, Archie at least said "Holy Ghost".  Well done.
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Unbaptized Nephew
    « Reply #8 on: October 26, 2021, 01:48:19 PM »
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    • I know all of this Simpleman, but I also know Faith and reason are also complimentary and not at odds with each other. Why should a child live seven years barred from Heaven when it can be so easily rectified? If the pains of Hell are much greater for the baptized after the age of reason than the non- baptized, I'd like to see that Church docuмentation somewhere.
    Otherrwise I don't get it.  
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    Offline Motorede

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    Re: Unbaptized Nephew
    « Reply #9 on: October 26, 2021, 01:51:44 PM »
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    • Every Sacrament is a contract with God. God promises to give grace if the recipient promises to fulfill his obligations required by the Sacraments. Non-Catholic parents cannot be trusted to fulfill their contract. 
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    Offline Carissima

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    Re: Unbaptized Nephew
    « Reply #10 on: October 26, 2021, 02:09:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Motorede on October 26, 2021, 01:51:44 PM
    Every Sacrament is a contract with God. God promises to give grace if the recipient promises to fulfill his obligations required by the Sacraments. Non-Catholic parents cannot be trusted to fulfill their contract.
    This ^^^


    God desires the child’s Salvation more than anyone. He will make it possible. The prayer and sacrifices of family members can help with obtaining it.
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Unbaptized Nephew
    « Reply #11 on: October 26, 2021, 02:13:58 PM »
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    • So why is it allowed without the parents permission in an emergent death- the same circuмstances apply. Could we presume the mercy of God and the Church in this instance?
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Unbaptized Nephew
    « Reply #12 on: October 26, 2021, 02:15:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Carissima on October 26, 2021, 02:09:25 PM
    This ^^^


    God desires the child’s Salvation more than anyone. He will make it possible. The prayer and sacrifices of family members can help with obtaining it.
    I assume the prayers are for the child to be baptized....
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Unbaptized Nephew
    « Reply #13 on: October 26, 2021, 02:18:54 PM »
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    • OK- then....
    If an illicit baptism is done, is it valid? I say yes. Does it protect the child from hell before the age of reason? I say yes. So is it wrong for the child to be in Heaven if it dies baptized, without original sin, in a state of Grace? I say no.



    If non-Catholic parents cannot fullfill the contract, why does the Church allow ANYONE , even a non-believer to baptize in an emergency?
    What are the penalties for the baptizer?
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    Offline Motorede

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    Re: Unbaptized Nephew
    « Reply #14 on: October 26, 2021, 02:32:18 PM »
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    • In case of real danger of death even these bad parents could baptize their child with no penalties for doing so. Salvation of souls is the supreme law. When death is involved many of the rules are lessened.  
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