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Author Topic: Una cuм Question: An AI Bug, or Catholic Teaching?  (Read 67817 times)

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Offline SkidRowCatholic

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Re: Una cuм Question: An AI Bug, or Catholic Teaching?
« Reply #60 on: Yesterday at 11:16:00 AM »
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  • Also, fwiw, this Formula was decreed over 1000 years before the Law of Quo Primum
    Well it's not worth much, we already went over this.

    I think very few people indeed (perhaps only you) would think that the words, "omit nothing" translates to,
    "Always name whoever is touted as the legitimate Roman Pontiff at that time in the Te Igitur regardless of all circuмstances and evidence to the contrary."

    Then those who did not continue to name Pius V in the Mass when he was dead would have "omitted something", and violated Quo Primum.

    Then those who did not know Pius V had died and Gregory XIII had been elected and they continued to name Pius V in the Canon would have been "omitting" the name of the true Pope.

    Obviously the "omit nothing" means "removing anything that the rubrics proscribe."

    The rubrics proscribe naming the Roman Pontiff when alive.
    If there is no Roman Pontiff at the time then that is to be OMITTED.
    So, even according to your janky logic here, just following the rubrics in the case of sede vacante would be to violate Quo Primum! The rubrics call to "omit something" :facepalm:

    I don't think any sane person would agree with you on this, but it is not essential to understanding the formula of Pope Hormisdas anyway.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Una cuм Question: An AI Bug, or Catholic Teaching?
    « Reply #61 on: Yesterday at 11:38:41 AM »
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  • The bottom line for me is this truth:

    "....It doesn't hurt anything to pray for him in the Mass; it surely could not be wrong to do so, even if it is an honest mistake. Pope or not, God knows that he who is called John Paul II needs our prayers, as all of us need God's mercy. But to attack the office of the papacy, and to separate oneself from it, is a serious thing to be wrong about. This Sedevacantism is your opinion. But the Mass not yours, and I know you do not have the right to change a word of it. I have heard you say the same thing about those who brought in the New Mass. And now this is what you have done!" - Fr. Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?





    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Una cuм Question: An AI Bug, or Catholic Teaching?
    « Reply #62 on: Yesterday at 01:33:47 PM »
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  • The bottom line for me is this
    Yes, yes, I know you are just looping back to Fr. Wathen as this is your default belief.

    But will you confirm this is what the line from the formula means or not?

    In other words, do you agree that the core principle is more broad and actually twofold?

    i.e.

    I promise that from now on those who are separated from the communion of the Catholic Church, that is, who are not in agreement with the Apostolic See, will not have
    their names read during the sacred mysteries.

    So the core principles would be more accurately stated thus,

    "Only those who have the Catholic faith and acknowledge the legitimate spiritual authority over them should be named in that part of Mass because this naming symbolizes unity in the faith and eccelesastical subordination."

    This is why the formula starts out with faith as supreme,

    1) "The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers."

    And then immediately expresses subordination,

    2) "for in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has always been kept unsullied. From this hope and faith we by no means desire to be separated."

    It is only after these two principles are established that the formula goes on to pronounce the anathemas.


    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Una cuм Question: An AI Bug, or Catholic Teaching?
    « Reply #63 on: Yesterday at 01:42:44 PM »
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  • "....It doesn't hurt anything to pray for him in the Mass; it surely could not be wrong to do so, even if it is an honest mistake."

    Well, it defintely would be an "honest mistake" for someone who was NOT morally certain about the manifest, public heresy of the putative post-concillar claimants to the papacy. 

    Otherwise,





    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Una cuм Question: An AI Bug, or Catholic Teaching?
    « Reply #64 on: Yesterday at 01:58:04 PM »
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  • Yes, yes, I know you are just looping back to Fr. Wathen as this is your default belief.

    But will you confirm this is what the line from the formula means or not?
    You and gladius knock me for referencing Fr. Wathen in order to derail and imply he's wrong or something, but what you cannot do is dispute what he said, that's because what he said is truth.  

    Of course I agree with it, when a good future pope comes out and condemns the conciliar popes to be heretics and schismatics and to omit their name from the canon, I will be 100% onboard. Why do you imply that I wouldn't? 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Una cuм Question: An AI Bug, or Catholic Teaching?
    « Reply #65 on: Yesterday at 02:37:16 PM »
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  • Of course I agree with it
    OK, this is good.
    We agree that the phrase in question and general principles (which are based on doctrine not just discipline) are basically something like,

    "Only those who have the Catholic faith and acknowledge the legitimate spiritual authority over them should be named in that part of Mass because this naming symbolizes unity in the faith and eccelesastical subordination."

    Thank you for affirming that,



    Now to your point about never excluding someone from the Canon (Pope or Ordinary),


    The Catholic principle of not naming those who've been officially declared by the pope to be in schism not to be named in the canon because they are in schism.
    Might there ever be any circuмstance and or doctrine that would not only allow, but oblige someone to omit a name from the Canon of the Mass? If yes, please elaborate.

    Why do you imply that I wouldn't?
    Well, IDK maybe because your calling the teaching "crap" without telling us which teachings are "useless junk" - so it makes it look like you are disparaging the teaching because you would not specify WHICH teachings are false. This looks gravely suspect.

    Plus you performed a most impressive double entendre in claiming that you think the pope is a heretic and that he must still be named in the Canon.

    1) You affirm the principle of non-communion with heretics/schismatics especially in omitting their names from the Canon.
    2) But you then insist on a no-holds-barred interpretation of the the two words "omit nothing" from Quo Primum, which leads you to gaff and think heretics must always be named in the Mass until they are "officially declared by the pope" regardless of any circuмstantial or doctrinal consideration whatsoever.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Una cuм Question: An AI Bug, or Catholic Teaching?
    « Reply #66 on: Today at 05:07:19 AM »
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  • Now to your point about never excluding someone from the Canon (Pope or Ordinary),
    Might there ever be any circuмstance and or doctrine that would not only allow, but oblige someone to omit a name from the Canon of the Mass? If yes, please elaborate.
    Well, IDK maybe because your calling the teaching "crap" without telling us which teachings are "useless junk" - so it makes it look like you are disparaging the teaching because you would not specify WHICH teachings are false. This looks gravely suspect.
    What are you reading? I never said the teaching was crap, I said the AI was crap . . .
    "I don't know enough about it, but I know the AI link in the OP is full of crap and most certainly should not be used by those new to tradition." And that the AI is junk. . ."I don't know what you think you're accomplishing with this AI thing, but it's junk,"

    So whenever you accuse me of saying something wrong, be sure you're accusing me of something I actually said.

    The reason I said the AI was crap is because it describes heretics alright, but says the conciliar popes are not heretics. It says the pope's name can be omitted for heresy, and also says Quo Primum forbids it. The thing is unreliable, it's junk. It says V2 did not teach heresy. And there are other (easy) questions I asked it that are often brought up in debates here on CI, that AI's answers were 100% wrong.

    Quote
    Plus you performed a most impressive double entendre in claiming that you think the pope is a heretic and that he must still be named in the Canon.

    1) You affirm the principle of non-communion with heretics/schismatics especially in omitting their names from the Canon.
    2) But you then insist on a no-holds-barred interpretation of the the two words "omit nothing" from Quo Primum, which leads you to gaff and think heretics must always be named in the Mass until they are "officially declared by the pope" regardless of any circuмstantial or doctrinal consideration whatsoever.
    I already posted why the priest prays for the pope by name in the canon, either you disagree with this excellent explanation, or you did not read it.

    Here is another quote from Fr. Wathen - please show where he is wrong.

    "....If the person who incurs the censure [of excommunication for heresy] be the pope himself, since there is no tribunal within the Church with the right to pass judgment against him, he cannot be removed from his office, even though he be under censure, and, according to the law, have no right to function as the head of the Church. We, his subjects, are not permitted to do anything about this. It is not within our right to declare his acts devoid of validity, due to his having been expelled from his office. Yes, the faithful may know well that he has committed a sin to which a censure is affixed by the Church, but this knowledge in no way qualifies them to declare him deprived of his office, or never to have been elected. We should have to continue to obey him as the pope in all those religious matters which fall within the ambit of his authority, UNLESS he should command something which is sinful."    
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Una cuм Question: An AI Bug, or Catholic Teaching?
    « Reply #67 on: Today at 09:02:51 AM »
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  • The reason I said the AI was crap is because it describes heretics alright, but says the conciliar popes are not heretics.
    Well, you have to command it to go "pre-Vatican II mode" before you ask it anything. Of course it will say Leo is Pope because 99% of he world believes he is Catholic, but if you ask the AI if there are those who say he is not Pope, it will validate that Traditionalist exist. So, this is no invalidating "experiment" against the AI (at least in regard to the OP).

    It says the pope's name can be omitted for heresy, and also says Quo Primum forbids it.
    No, it does not say Quo Primum forbids "removing the name of a manifest, public, heretic from the Canon". You are presenting another false dichotomy. You have failed to consider the critical distinction that we are now coming to:

    Might there ever be any circuмstance and or doctrine that would not only allow, but oblige someone to omit a name from the Canon of the Mass? If yes, please elaborate.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Una cuм Question: An AI Bug, or Catholic Teaching?
    « Reply #68 on: Today at 10:26:50 AM »
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  • Yes, during a papal interregnum, which is the period of time between the death or resignation of a pope, and the election of the next pope. That is when his name is omitted, because he died or resigned.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Una cuм Question: An AI Bug, or Catholic Teaching?
    « Reply #69 on: Today at 10:49:56 AM »
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  • Yes, during a papal interregnum.
    Correct.

    And you already correctly stated above that when a heretic/schismatic is "officially declared by the pope" there name is to be omitted.

    And I have all ready admitted to the circuмstances that someone holding purely innocent material error(s) i.e.;

    Not sure sure who the local Ordinary was.
    Someone being truthfully unaware of the manifest, public heresy of a fallen prelate.
    Being in error about who the current Pope or Ordinary was because he had died and been replaced.

    But yet still,

    Might there ever be any other circuмstance and or doctrine that would not only allow, but oblige someone to omit a name from the Canon of the Mass (other than the above examples)? If yes, please elaborate.