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Author Topic: Traditional rules on non-Catholics and Communion  (Read 372 times)

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Offline Mercyandjustice

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Traditional rules on non-Catholics and Communion
« on: March 29, 2020, 08:15:55 PM »
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  • What are the traditional rules on the liceity of Catholic priests giving communion to non Catholics? Please cite sources if you can..



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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Traditional rules on non-Catholics and Communion
    « Reply #1 on: March 29, 2020, 10:15:21 PM »
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  • Does the priest know he is giving Holy Eucharist to Non-catholics?   Only Baptized Catholics may receive.


    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: Traditional rules on non-Catholics and Communion
    « Reply #2 on: March 29, 2020, 10:33:57 PM »
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  • What are the traditional rules on the liceity of Catholic priests giving communion to non Catholics? Please cite sources if you can..



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    There were situations where it was licit? Please forgive any ignorance, but that seems incredulous.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...

    Offline poche

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    Re: Traditional rules on non-Catholics and Communion
    « Reply #3 on: March 29, 2020, 11:23:01 PM »
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  • From the Code of Canon Law;

    Can.  844 §1. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments licitly to Catholic members of the Christian faithful alone, who likewise receive them licitly from Catholic ministers alone, without prejudice to the prescripts of §§2, 3, and 4 of this canon, and  can. 861, §2.
    §2. Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-
    Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.
    §3. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick licitly to members of Eastern Churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church if they seek such on their own accord and are properly disposed. This is also valid for members of other Churches which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition in regard to the sacraments as these Eastern Churches.
    §4. If the danger of death is present or if, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop or conference of bishops, some other grave necessity urges it, Catholic ministers administer these same sacraments licitly also to other Christians not having full communion with the Catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and who seek such on their own accord, provided that they manifest Catholic faith in respect to these sacraments and are properly disposed.
    §5. For the cases mentioned in §§2, 3, and 4, the diocesan bishop or conference of bishops is not to issue general norms except after consultation at least with the local competent authority of the interested non-Catholic Church or community.


    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2T.HTM

    Offline Mercyandjustice

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    Re: Traditional rules on non-Catholics and Communion
    « Reply #4 on: March 30, 2020, 12:39:41 PM »
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  • There were situations where it was licit? Please forgive any ignorance, but that seems incredulous.
    I'm trying to compare the previous rules with the current rules. Which are:
    Members of the Orthodox and other churches like it may licitly be given Communion if they "ask for it and are properly disposed."
    Also, protestants may be given communion only in danger of death and if they "manifest the Catholic faith concerning the sacrament and are properly disposed."
    What exactly "properly disposed" mean i'm not sure... And I do think that giving communion to schismatic members is ridiculous.. Presumably, however, the current canons refer to those who were born outside the Catholic Church (schismatic through no fault of their own). That is, those who haven't left the Catholic Church and those who haven't obstinately remained outside the Church. In this case, I don't think it is too ridiculous.


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Traditional rules on non-Catholics and Communion
    « Reply #5 on: March 30, 2020, 01:27:36 PM »
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  • From the Code of Canon Law;

    Can.  844 §1. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments licitly to Catholic members of the Christian faithful alone, who likewise receive them licitly from Catholic ministers alone, without prejudice to the prescripts of §§2, 3, and 4 of this canon, and can. 861, §2.
    §2. Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-
    Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.
    §3. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick licitly to members of Eastern Churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church if they seek such on their own accord and are properly disposed. This is also valid for members of other Churches which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition in regard to the sacraments as these Eastern Churches.
    §4. If the danger of death is present or if, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop or conference of bishops, some other grave necessity urges it, Catholic ministers administer these same sacraments licitly also to other Christians not having full communion with the Catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and who seek such on their own accord, provided that they manifest Catholic faith in respect to these sacraments and are properly disposed.
    §5. For the cases mentioned in §§2, 3, and 4, the diocesan bishop or conference of bishops is not to issue general norms except after consultation at least with the local competent authority of the interested non-Catholic Church or community.


    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2T.HTM
    I am not questioning the validity and binding force of the 1983 CIC --- I accept it --- but I think the OP was wondering more about practices prior to Vatican II, under the 1917 CIC and even before.

    Offline poche

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    Re: Traditional rules on non-Catholics and Communion
    « Reply #6 on: March 30, 2020, 11:52:39 PM »
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  • I am not questioning the validity and binding force of the 1983 CIC --- I accept it --- but I think the OP was wondering more about practices prior to Vatican II, under the 1917 CIC and even before.
    I remember growing up prior to the 1983 Code of Canon Law, hearing and reading that it was permitted for an Orthodox who was unable to access their minister (travelers far and away from their own countries) were permitted to go to confession, receive communion, extreme unction in cases that were the exception. From what I observed this was not universally known or respected. All this happened long before the internet was invented so I have no way at this time of producing a connection.       

    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: Traditional rules on non-Catholics and Communion
    « Reply #7 on: March 31, 2020, 01:58:35 AM »
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  • This did happen, many times some orthodox churches were in communion with both Rome and Constantinople. Mostly it did occur between oriental orthodox and oriental catholics. The reason is that there's never been an official condemnation of these churches. At Chalcedon for example only the patriarch of Alexandria was condemned but not for heresy for issuing an illegitimate excommunication. Technically the Antiochians Syriacs just issued anathemas and withdrew. Armenians had no part in the council. They simply were outside the Empire. The churches just separated essentially because each linguistic group was using philosophical terms that were different from each other and the political ambition of Constantinople was unchecked, this essentialy was the thing that lead them to break with Rome. Rome began in earnest to send missionaries to these churches and over @ 200 years restored communion to many. The discussions lead to the healing of many misconceptions and at times the allowing of communion. This is different than the EO who are essentially just heretics. Having explained all that, it was never a blanket permission, or common practice.
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا


    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Traditional rules on non-Catholics and Communion
    « Reply #8 on: March 31, 2020, 05:25:13 AM »
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  • According to the Commentary on Canon Law by Augustine (1918), the traditional rules are specified in Canon 731, Section 2 which “forbids the administration of the Sacraments to heretics and schismatics, even though they may be in good faith and ask for them. It is necessary that they first renounce their errors and become reconciled to the Church.”

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Traditional rules on non-Catholics and Communion
    « Reply #9 on: March 31, 2020, 07:36:33 AM »
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  • This did happen, many times some orthodox churches were in communion with both Rome and Constantinople. Mostly it did occur between oriental orthodox and oriental catholics. The reason is that there's never been an official condemnation of these churches. At Chalcedon for example only the patriarch of Alexandria was condemned but not for heresy for issuing an illegitimate excommunication. Technically the Antiochians Syriacs just issued anathemas and withdrew. Armenians had no part in the council. They simply were outside the Empire. The churches just separated essentially because each linguistic group was using philosophical terms that were different from each other and the political ambition of Constantinople was unchecked, this essentialy was the thing that lead them to break with Rome. Rome began in earnest to send missionaries to these churches and over @ 200 years restored communion to many. The discussions lead to the healing of many misconceptions and at times the allowing of communion. This is different than the EO who are essentially just heretics. Having explained all that, it was never a blanket permission, or common practice.

    No, this has never been permitted in principle.  What you're discussing is merely a dispute or uncertainty of fact about whether they were Catholic.  Had it been clearly established that they were not Catholic, then they would be forbidden from receiving the Sacraments.  It is of unanimous Apostolic Tradition that those outside the Church may not receive the Sacraments.  So, uhm, no, this "did [NOT] happen" ... contrary to your claim.