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Traditional Catholic Faith => The Sacred: Catholic Liturgy, Chant, Prayers => Topic started by: Matthew on March 14, 2022, 11:01:14 PM
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My God, I believe, I adore, I hope and I love Thee! I beg pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love Thee. Amen.
My God, I believe, I adore, I hope and I love Thee. I beg pardon for all those that do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love Thee. Amen.
My God, I believe, I adore, I trust, and I love Thee! I ask pardon for for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not trust and do not love Thee.
My God, I believe, I adore, I hope and I love Thee! I ask pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love Thee.
O Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I adore Thee profoundly. I offer Thee the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifference by which He is offended. By the infinite merits of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg the conversion of poor sinners.
O Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, I adore Thee profoundly. I offer Thee the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifferences by which He is offended. By the infinite merits of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary I beg the conversion of poor sinners. Amen.
Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I adore Thee profoundly. I offer Thee the Most Precious Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges, and indifference by which He is offended. And through the infinite merit of His Most Sacred Heart, and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of Thee the conversion of poor sinners.
Most Holy Trinity—Father, Son and Holy Spirit—I adore Thee profoundly. I offer Thee the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges, and indifferences whereby He is offended. And through the infinite merits of His Most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of Thee the conversion of poor sinners.
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This is a lot like the St. Michael prayer, and even the "O My Jesus" prayer -- there are many variations in the English versions of the prayer.
Don't people make *any* effort to go with an established translation, rather than creating a new one of their own? Vainglory much?
Anyhow, I'm trying to find a popular version of these 2 Fatima prayers from the angel -- any advice on which one is the most popular? Or am I missing the most popular version? I looked all over the Net on the largest/highest cred/most Trad websites to find these.
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Someone shared the O My Jesus prayer from the Jacinta book which is apparently an English translation of the original Portuguese:
"Oh my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fires of hell, relieve the souls in Purgatory, especially those most abandoned."
I started using that instead of the mercy one.
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No ideas?
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My God, I believe, I adore, I hope and I love Thee! I beg pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love Thee. Amen.
O Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, I adore Thee profoundly. I offer Thee the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifference by which He Himself is offended. By the infinite merits of the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary I beg the conversion of poor sinners. Amen.
FWIW, these^^^ are my preference.
Because they have never been approved for liturgical use or had any Indulgences attached to them (as far as I could find), there really is no standard translation.
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I looked these over tonight, and thought back to how I heard them prayed in various groups in the past.
In other words, which elements sounded the most normal, the most common, the most familiar.
I also gave it some thought: e.g., there is no plural form of "indifference". And since the prayer is talking about Jesus, it is more natural to say "His Most Sacred Heart" than to say "The Sacred Heart of Jesus" since we were speaking about Jesus in the previous sentences. So it is more natural; it flows and sounds better.
Since I'm trad, it has to be "Holy Ghost" instead of "Holy Spirit". I know they're the same, but like I said: I'm trad and I want to make that very apparent to all.
Here is what I came up with:
My God, I believe, I adore, I hope and I love Thee! I ask pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love Thee.
O Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, I adore Thee profoundly. I offer Thee the most Precious Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifference by which He is offended. And through the infinite merits of His Most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of Thee the conversion of poor sinners. Amen.
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I ask pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love Thee.
This smells of Novus Ordo. I'd never ask pardon for those who obstinately refuse to believe, adore, hope and love Jesus Christ. We're not obligated to pray for their pardon. We're to pray for their conversion to God, for His greater glory, which would effect their salvation if they die in the state of grace, but if they refuse, let them die ugly for eternity.
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This smells of Novus Ordo. I'd never ask pardon for those who obstinately refuse to believe, adore, hope and love Jesus Christ. We're not obligated to pray for their pardon. We're to pray for their conversion to God, for His greater glory, which would effect their salvation if they die in the state of grace, but if they refuse, let them die ugly for eternity.
That's not what this means. Those who refuse to [believe, adore, hope ...] cannot be forgiven until they repent. Let's say your have a brother and he comes by an insults someone. You might go up to the person and say, "I'm sorry for my brother's behavior." In a way you're making reparation to the "offendee" rather than the "offender".
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That's not what this means.
This is what it says, verbatim:
"I ask pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love Thee."
Your response sounds like something a Council participant would say to it's critics. It's mental gymnastics. The above quote is clear that the person is asking God to pardon non-believers and persons who refuse to adore and love God, and have no hope in Him. That's essentially asking God to pardon persons guilty of sinning against the Holy Ghost, which we know is impossible.
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That's not what this means. Those who refuse to [believe, adore, hope ...] cannot be forgiven until they repent. Let's say your have a brother and he comes by an insults someone. You might go up to the person and say, "I'm sorry for my brother's behavior." In a way you're making reparation to the "offendee" rather than the "offender".
Exactly correct.
It used to be common for family members, friends, and decent men and women of all stripes to apologize for bad behavior from spouses, family members, etc. -- even if they didn't deserve pardon, strictly speaking. You have compassion on them and don't want to see them thrown out, thrown in jail, etc. so you plead for mercy.
The whole POINT of mercy is you're asking for "better than they deserve". If the person hadn't committed some offense/fault, there would be nothing to ask for mercy for!
Reminds me of the distinction between charity and justice. If you OWE someone money, or they deserve it, then it's justice, not charity. The whole point of charity is that the recipient has *no* claims on your money/goods/time/etc., but you give it to them anyhow.
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It used to be common for family members, friends, and decent men and women of all stripes to apologize for bad behavior from spouses, family members, etc. -- even if they didn't deserve pardon, strictly speaking. You have compassion on them and don't want to see them thrown out, thrown in jail, etc. so you plead for mercy.
That has nothing to do with the following quote from the prayer: "I ask pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love Thee." The quote is asking pardon of others for a direct rejection of Jesus Christ. It's not for bad behavior towards fellow men. Either admit the prayer is written very poorly or your explanation is a logical fallacy.
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The prayer is not asking pardon for OBSTINATE rejection of God (which only He could know anyways...and also, only He knows if someone has committed the unpardonable offense against the Holy Ghost...none of us could know), it is asking pardon for those who simply reject God in their daily lives (atheists, pagans, Gnostics, apostates). It perfectly lines up with Our Lady of Fatima’s other request - pray and offer sacrifices for the conversion of sinners.
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The prayer is not asking pardon for OBSTINATE rejection of God (which only He could know anyways...and also, only He knows if someone has committed the unpardonable offense against the Holy Ghost...none of us could know), it is asking pardon for those who simply reject God in their daily lives (atheists, pagans, Gnostics, apostates).
You smell like one of those akin to false bishop Barron who teaches the heresy and publicly stated "even atheists of good will can make it to Heaven."
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You smell like one of those akin to false bishop Barron who teaches the heresy and publicly stated "even atheists of good will can make it to Heaven."
Ad Hominem
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Ad Hominem
That's not a refutation. Try addressing the points that I made. Thus far, the mentality here is 2+2=5 a la "I ask pardon for those who refuse to believe and hope in, love and adore you, God." = "That only means pardoning those who behave badly towards their fellow men."
Btw, ad hominems can be true, which is certainly the case here. So again, try actually addressing the points I made; and stop missing the forest for the trees.
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Pardon = mercy = conversion. Doesn’t God want us to pray for sinners?
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This smells of Novus Ordo. I'd never ask pardon for those who obstinately refuse to believe, adore, hope and love Jesus Christ. We're not obligated to pray for their pardon. We're to pray for their conversion to God, for His greater glory, which would effect their salvation if they die in the state of grace, but if they refuse, let them die ugly for eternity.
Where does the prayer mention obstinacy?
Here's a similar prayer:
Eternal Father, since Thou hast given me for my inheritance the adorable Face of Thy Divine Son, I offer that face to Thee and I beg Thee, in exchange for this coin of infinite value, to forget the ingratitude of souls dedicated to Thee and to pardon all poor sinners.
-St. Therese of Lisieux
Also, here is an excerpt from St.Thomas' Summa (reply to objection 3 is particularly pertinent):
Article 7. Whether we ought to pray for others?
Objection 1. It would seem that we ought not to pray (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) for others. On praying (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) we ought to conform to the pattern given by our Lord (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm). Now in the Lord's Prayer (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09356a.htm) we make petitions for ourselves, not for others; thus we say: "Give us this day our daily bread," etc. Therefore we should not pray (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) for others.
Objection 2. Further, prayer (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) is offered that it may be heard. Now one of the conditions (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04211a.htm) required for prayer (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) that it may be heard is that one pray (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) for oneself, wherefore Augustine (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02084a.htm) in commenting (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04157a.htm) on John 16:23 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/joh016.htm#verse23), "If you ask the Father anything in My name He will give it you," says (Tract. cii): "Everyone is heard when he prays (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) for himself, not when he prays (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) for all; wherefore He does not say simply 'He will give it,' but 'He will give it you. '" Therefore it would seem that we ought not to pray (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) for others, but only for ourselves.
Objection 3. Further, we are forbidden to pray (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) for others, if they are wicked (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm), according to Jeremiah 7:16 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/jer007.htm#verse16), "Therefore do not then pray (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) for this people . . . and do not withstand Me, for I will not hear thee." On the other hand we are not bound to pray (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) for the good (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06636b.htm), since they are heard when they pray (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) for themselves. Therefore it would seem that we ought not to pray (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) for others.
On the contrary, It is written (James 5:16 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/jam005.htm#verse16)): "Pray one for another, that you may be saved."
I answer that, As stated above (Article 6 (https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3083.htm#article6)), when we pray (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) we ought to ask for what we ought to desire. Now we ought to desire good (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06636b.htm) things not only for ourselves, but also for others: for this is essential (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05543b.htm) to the love which we owe to our neighbor, as stated above (II-II:25:1 (https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3025.htm#article1) and II-II:25:2 (https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3025.htm#article2); II-II:27:2 (https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3027.htm#article2); II-II:31:1 (https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3031.htm#article1)). Therefore charity (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm) requires us to pray (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) for others. Hence Chrysostom (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08452b.htm) says (Hom. xiv in Matth.) [Opus Imperfectum, falsely (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05781a.htm) ascribed to St. John Chrysostom (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08452b.htm)]: "Necessity (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10733a.htm) binds us to pray (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) for ourselves, fraternal charity (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm) urges us to pray (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) for others: and the prayer (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) that fraternal charity (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm) proffers is sweeter to God (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) than that which is the outcome of necessity (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10733a.htm)."
Reply to Objection 1. As Cyprian (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04583b.htm) says (De orat. Dom.), "We say 'Our Father' and not 'My Father,' 'Give us' and not 'Give me,' because the Master of unity (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) did not wish us to pray (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) privately, that is for ourselves alone, for He wished each one to pray (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) for all, even as He Himself bore all in one."
Reply to Objection 2. It is a condition (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04211a.htm) of prayer (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) that one pray (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) for oneself: not as though it were necessary (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10733a.htm) in order that prayer (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) be meritorious (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10202b.htm), but as being necessary (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10733a.htm) in order that prayer (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) may not fail in its effect of impetration. For it sometimes happens that we pray (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) for another with piety and perseverance, and ask for things relating to his salvation (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm), and yet it is not granted on account of some obstacle on the part of the person (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11726a.htm) we are praying (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) for, according to Jeremiah 15:1 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/jer015.htm#verse1), "If Moses (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10596a.htm) and Samuel shall stand before Me, My soul (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm) is not towards this people." And yet the prayer (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) will be meritorious (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10202b.htm) for the person (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11726a.htm) who prays (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) thus out of charity (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm), according to Psalm 34:13 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/psa034.htm#verse13), "My prayer (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) shall be turned into my bosom, i.e. though it profit them not, I am not deprived of my reward," as the gloss (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06586a.htm) expounds it.
Reply to Objection 3. We ought to pray (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) even for sinners, that they may be converted (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04347a.htm), and for the just that they may persevere and advance in holiness (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07386a.htm). Yet those who pray (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) are heard not for all sinners but for some: since they are heard for the predestined, but not for those who are foreknown to death; even as the correction whereby we correct the brethren, has an effect in the predestined but not in the reprobate, according to Ecclesiastes 7:14 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/ecc007.htm#verse14), "No man (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) can correct whom God (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) hath despised." Hence it is written (1 John 5:16 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/1jo005.htm#verse16)): "He that knoweth (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08673a.htm) his brother to sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) a sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) not to death." Now just as the benefit of correction must not be refused to any man (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) so long as he lives here below, because we cannot distinguish the predestined from the reprobate, as Augustine (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02084a.htm) says (De Correp. et Grat. xv), so too no man (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) should be denied the help of prayer (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm).
We ought also to pray (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) for the just for three reasons: First, because the prayers (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) of a multitude are more easily heard, wherefore a gloss (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06586a.htm) on Romans 15:30 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/rom015.htm#verse30), "Help me in your prayers (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm)," says: "The Apostle (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm) rightly tells the lesser brethren to pray (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) for him, for many lesser ones, if they be united together in one mind, become great, and it is impossible for the prayers (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) of a multitude not to obtain" that which is possible to be obtained by prayer (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm). Secondly, that many may thank God (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) for the graces (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) conferred on the just, which graces (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) conduce to the profit of many, according to the Apostle (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm) (2 Corinthians 1:11 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/2co001.htm#verse11)). Thirdly, that the more perfect may not wax proud, seeing that they find that they need the prayers (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) of the less perfect.
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Pardon = mercy = conversion. Doesn’t God want us to pray for sinners?
You lack reading comprehension. Read my first comment, again.
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Where does the prayer mention obstinacy?
Here's a similar prayer:
Eternal Father, since Thou hast given me for my inheritance the adorable Face of Thy Divine Son, I offer that face to Thee and I beg Thee, in exchange for this coin of infinite value, to forget the ingratitude of souls dedicated to Thee and to pardon all poor sinners.
-St. Therese of Lisieux
Also, here is an excerpt from St.Thomas' Summa (reply to objection 3 is particularly pertinent):
Article 7. Whether we ought to pray for others?
Objection 1. It would seem that we ought not to pray (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) for others. On praying (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) we ought to conform to the pattern given by our Lord (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/08374c.htm). Now in the Lord's Prayer (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/09356a.htm) we make petitions for ourselves, not for others; thus we say: "Give us this day our daily bread," etc. Therefore we should not pray (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) for others.
Objection 2. Further, prayer (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) is offered that it may be heard. Now one of the conditions (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/04211a.htm) required for prayer (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) that it may be heard is that one pray (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) for oneself, wherefore Augustine (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/02084a.htm) in commenting (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/04157a.htm) on John 16:23 (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/bible/joh016.htm#verse23), "If you ask the Father anything in My name He will give it you," says (Tract. cii): "Everyone is heard when he prays (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) for himself, not when he prays (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) for all; wherefore He does not say simply 'He will give it,' but 'He will give it you. '" Therefore it would seem that we ought not to pray (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) for others, but only for ourselves.
Objection 3. Further, we are forbidden to pray (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) for others, if they are wicked (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/05649a.htm), according to Jeremiah 7:16 (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/bible/jer007.htm#verse16), "Therefore do not then pray (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) for this people . . . and do not withstand Me, for I will not hear thee." On the other hand we are not bound to pray (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) for the good (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/06636b.htm), since they are heard when they pray (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) for themselves. Therefore it would seem that we ought not to pray (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) for others.
On the contrary, It is written (James 5:16 (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/bible/jam005.htm#verse16)): "Pray one for another, that you may be saved."
I answer that, As stated above (Article 6 (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/summa/3083.htm#article6)), when we pray (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) we ought to ask for what we ought to desire. Now we ought to desire good (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/06636b.htm) things not only for ourselves, but also for others: for this is essential (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/05543b.htm) to the love which we owe to our neighbor, as stated above (II-II:25:1 (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/summa/3025.htm#article1) and II-II:25:2 (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/summa/3025.htm#article2); II-II:27:2 (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/summa/3027.htm#article2); II-II:31:1 (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/summa/3031.htm#article1)). Therefore charity (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/09397a.htm) requires us to pray (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) for others. Hence Chrysostom (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/08452b.htm) says (Hom. xiv in Matth.) [Opus Imperfectum, falsely (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/05781a.htm) ascribed to St. John Chrysostom (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/08452b.htm)]: "Necessity (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/10733a.htm) binds us to pray (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) for ourselves, fraternal charity (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/09397a.htm) urges us to pray (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) for others: and the prayer (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) that fraternal charity (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/09397a.htm) proffers is sweeter to God (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/06608a.htm) than that which is the outcome of necessity (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/10733a.htm)."
Reply to Objection 1. As Cyprian (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/04583b.htm) says (De orat. Dom.), "We say 'Our Father' and not 'My Father,' 'Give us' and not 'Give me,' because the Master of unity (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/08374c.htm) did not wish us to pray (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) privately, that is for ourselves alone, for He wished each one to pray (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) for all, even as He Himself bore all in one."
Reply to Objection 2. It is a condition (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/04211a.htm) of prayer (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) that one pray (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) for oneself: not as though it were necessary (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/10733a.htm) in order that prayer (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) be meritorious (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/10202b.htm), but as being necessary (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/10733a.htm) in order that prayer (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) may not fail in its effect of impetration. For it sometimes happens that we pray (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) for another with piety and perseverance, and ask for things relating to his salvation (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/13407a.htm), and yet it is not granted on account of some obstacle on the part of the person (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/11726a.htm) we are praying (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) for, according to Jeremiah 15:1 (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/bible/jer015.htm#verse1), "If Moses (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/10596a.htm) and Samuel shall stand before Me, My soul (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/14153a.htm) is not towards this people." And yet the prayer (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) will be meritorious (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/10202b.htm) for the person (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/11726a.htm) who prays (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) thus out of charity (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/09397a.htm), according to Psalm 34:13 (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/bible/psa034.htm#verse13), "My prayer (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) shall be turned into my bosom, i.e. though it profit them not, I am not deprived of my reward," as the gloss (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/06586a.htm) expounds it.
Reply to Objection 3. We ought to pray (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) even for sinners, that they may be converted (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/04347a.htm), and for the just that they may persevere and advance in holiness (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/07386a.htm). Yet those who pray (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) are heard not for all sinners but for some: since they are heard for the predestined, but not for those who are foreknown to death; even as the correction whereby we correct the brethren, has an effect in the predestined but not in the reprobate, according to Ecclesiastes 7:14 (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/bible/ecc007.htm#verse14), "No man (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/09580c.htm) can correct whom God (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/06608a.htm) hath despised." Hence it is written (1 John 5:16 (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/bible/1jo005.htm#verse16)): "He that knoweth (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/08673a.htm) his brother to sin (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/14004b.htm) a sin (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/14004b.htm) which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/14004b.htm) not to death." Now just as the benefit of correction must not be refused to any man (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/09580c.htm) so long as he lives here below, because we cannot distinguish the predestined from the reprobate, as Augustine (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/02084a.htm) says (De Correp. et Grat. xv), so too no man (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/09580c.htm) should be denied the help of prayer (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm).
We ought also to pray (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) for the just for three reasons: First, because the prayers (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) of a multitude are more easily heard, wherefore a gloss (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/06586a.htm) on Romans 15:30 (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/bible/rom015.htm#verse30), "Help me in your prayers (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm)," says: "The Apostle (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/11567b.htm) rightly tells the lesser brethren to pray (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) for him, for many lesser ones, if they be united together in one mind, become great, and it is impossible for the prayers (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) of a multitude not to obtain" that which is possible to be obtained by prayer (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm). Secondly, that many may thank God (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/06608a.htm) for the graces (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/06689a.htm) conferred on the just, which graces (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/06689a.htm) conduce to the profit of many, according to the Apostle (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/11567b.htm) (2 Corinthians 1:11 (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/bible/2co001.htm#verse11)). Thirdly, that the more perfect may not wax proud, seeing that they find that they need the prayers (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/scxphqolue/spqr/p2/cathen/12345b.htm) of the less perfect.
You, apparently, lack reading comprehension, too. Reread my comment.
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You, apparently, lack reading comprehension, too. Reread my comment.
Please be so charitable as to enlighten us.
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Please be so charitable as to enlighten us.
I said it's commanded that we pray for their conversions. We are not to pray for pardon of those who reject Jesus Christ and don't love Him, and who don't believe in Him. The notion that we are to pray for their pardon is a heresy as it implies they can be saved. The Church before Vatican II is clear that they can't be saved. The aforementioned prayer is awful because its semantics are akin to something written at the Council. And what's the point of Christ suffering and dying on the Cross, if all of these Godless pricks can be pardoned anyway?
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I said it's commanded that we pray for their conversions. We are not to pray for pardon of those who reject Jesus Christ and don't love Him, and who don't believe in Him. The notion that we are to pray for their pardon is a heresy as it implies they can be saved. The Church before Vatican II is clear that they can't be saved. The aforementioned prayer is awful because its semantics are akin to something written at the Council. And what's the point of Christ suffering and dying on the Cross, if all of these Godless pricks can be pardoned anyway?
It comes across as a touch Feeneyite, to be frank.
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It comes across as a touch Feeneyite, to be frank.
No it doesn't. The prayer under scrutiny is opposite of "Feeneyite".