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Author Topic: Theosis and the West  (Read 913 times)

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Offline Todd The Trad

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Theosis and the West
« on: August 17, 2022, 05:46:39 PM »
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  • I've noticed that in the east there seems to be much more emphasis on partaking of the Divine nature. They call the concept theosis. In eastern thought theosis is the transformative participation in the uncreated energies of God inwhich the soul becomes like God. Its often compared to our own personal transfiguration. I know in the west there's generally no distinction between God's essence and energies however the concept of partaking in the divine nature and being transformed and united with God is certainly not foreign to the west. Isn't this our goal as far as working to advance spiritually? This concept is heavily included in the writings of many mystics such as st. John of the cross and st. Theresa of Avila for example. Is the western concept of sanctification/perfection/deification/ etc very similar to theosis for those who are familiar? If so do you think this has been neglected in western thought? 
    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Theosis and the West
    « Reply #1 on: August 17, 2022, 06:21:51 PM »
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  • How can it be neglected when Ss. John of the Cross and Teresa are incredibly popular among Traditionalists and Novus Ordites? There's not only the Carmelite mysticism, but devotions like the Sacred Heart that are central to the idea of divinization, as His Heart is the goal of which we are to unite our own. Or the sublime devotions to the Holy Eucharist, something that many of the Eastern "Orthodox" I've spoken with seem either curious about Adoration or abhor it as a "profanation" of the union with Our Lord in Holy Communion.

    I'll admit that when I went through a phase of flirting with Eastern mysticism and Eastern "Orthodoxy" that there was an allure to their concept of Theosis. But when you really dig into it, it's not fundamentally different from what the West already instills in the faithful.

    In short, there's nothing they have that we don't already have.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Theosis and the West
    « Reply #2 on: August 17, 2022, 07:14:48 PM »
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  • No, it's not neglected, but simply expressed differently.  East tends to have more mystical terminology.  Even in the West, the teaching has always been clear that the Holy Trinity dwells in souls that are in a state of sanctifying grace.  It's just a question of emphasis and terminology.

    Offline Donachie

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    Re: Theosis and the West
    « Reply #3 on: August 18, 2022, 10:44:52 AM »
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  • I've known some Greek Orthodox and I wasn't impressed. I think they're annoying. "Theosis" and "divine energies" for them and their belly buttons but no to the Filioque, etc. When the Turks were getting closer to their objectives in Constantinople, the Greeks didn't want any help from the West, and they would say "the turban before the mitre". And that's what they've gotten since 1453.

    The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, of course, and to the Son, but what then? His whole procession business just freezes up when it comes to God the Son? He proceeds from the Father to the Son and then the freezing process begins abruptly because he doesn't do anything at all after that. Or at least the Greeks insist that he should not. And where the Holy Spirt freezes up like that, that's where the Greeks see their chance, and want to take over. But then fate has the Turks come in and there you go.  

    Offline Donachie

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    Re: Theosis and the West
    « Reply #4 on: August 18, 2022, 12:45:18 PM »
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  • I was sort of joking around a little but that's how i feel about the Greeks. "Theosis" and "divine energies" for them and their belly buttons, but no filioque for God the Son. 

    The Greeks don't have the rosary either. The Immaculate Conception and Perpetual Virginity of St. Mary are a lot and then the Cross. It seems the only way to "partake of the divine nature" is to end up dying with Jesus, so there goes the way of the cross again. I don't think the Greeks have the way of the cross either.

    The Buddhists can have the lotus  flower and the Greeks the belly button, the Latin rite can have the cross.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Theosis and the West
    « Reply #5 on: August 18, 2022, 12:59:24 PM »
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  • I was sort of joking around a little but that's how i feel about the Greeks. "Theosis" and "divine energies" for them and their belly buttons, but no filioque for God the Son.

    The Greeks don't have the rosary either. The Immaculate Conception and Perpetual Virginity of St. Mary are a lot and then the Cross. It seems the only way to "partake of the divine nature" is to end up dying with Jesus, so there goes the way of the cross again. I don't think the Greeks have the way of the cross either.

    The Buddhists can have the lotus  flower and the Greeks the belly button, the Latin rite can have the cross.
    By "belly button" do you mean their concept of "nous"?

    I remember some EO priest talking about how us Catholics have too much of a focus on the Passion, when we should be more focused on the Resurrection and Theosis. The ironic thing is that the Cross is literally the way Our Lord told us to follow Him (Matt. 16:24), so of course we would fixate on it. It's amazing how they elevate their religion because it supposedly holds to Tradition as opposed to "innovations" when this "tradition" hasn't sufficiently purged out its errors or led to "Orthodox" unity.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Donachie

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    Re: Theosis and the West
    « Reply #6 on: August 18, 2022, 03:19:10 PM »
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  • By "belly button" do you mean their concept of "nous"?

    I remember some EO priest talking about how us Catholics have too much of a focus on the Passion, when we should be more focused on the Resurrection and Theosis. The ironic thing is that the Cross is literally the way Our Lord told us to follow Him (Matt. 16:24), so of course we would fixate on it. It's amazing how they elevate their religion because it supposedly holds to Tradition as opposed to "innovations" when this "tradition" hasn't sufficiently purged out its errors or led to "Orthodox" unity.
    You don't know about the Greeks and their belly buttons? They sit around and zone out on their belly buttons and get "deep", "deep" with the spiritual energies. Deep divine energies and they belly button. It might even be something like JP2's "theology of the body", but more oriental mystery to it.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Theosis and the West
    « Reply #7 on: August 18, 2022, 04:02:21 PM »
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  • You don't know about the Greeks and their belly buttons? They sit around and zone out on their belly buttons and get "deep", "deep" with the spiritual energies. Deep divine energies and they belly button. It might even be something like JP2's "theology of the body", but more oriental mystery to it.
    Oh, you're talking about Hesychastic prayer; where they position their heads in such a way (like some eastern pagans) in an attempt to "see" the "Divine energies".
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Donachie

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    Re: Theosis and the West
    « Reply #8 on: August 18, 2022, 04:09:29 PM »
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  • Some of the old Greek monks have a knack for it more than the others, but first they eliminate the filioque then focus on their belly button with deep breathing exercises.

    Offline Todd The Trad

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    Re: Theosis and the West
    « Reply #9 on: August 18, 2022, 10:13:25 PM »
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  • They do something called hesychasm. They do not believe in using your imagination or reasoning in prayer. They empty their mind and repeat the Jesus prayer while concentrating on their heart and His divine presense within them. From my little bit of study on mental prayer it seems that they are trying to force contemplation. Generally in the west the saints have said to begin mental prayer by using the imagination and reasoning and speaking with God. Gradually with spiritual progress in your prayer life you end up having less and less need for as much reasoning and imagination and most of the time is spent just speaking to God from the heart. You go from what's called discursive prayer to affective prayer. Basically as time goes on your prayer becomes more and more simple until God brings you to contemplation. Before contemplation you did most of the work with much effort. Now God begins to take a much more active role, infusing you with knowledge and love of Him. My point is that only God can bring you into contemplation when He wants to. It seems like in the east hesychasm is trying to skip straight to contemplation even though this is only done when God decides to. Of course God could work with this but it's different. It seems like the east and western approach to prayer begin differently but intend to lead to the same place, contemplation and union.
    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!

    Offline Donachie

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    Re: Theosis and the West
    « Reply #10 on: August 18, 2022, 10:50:23 PM »
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  • I know of people (really one) like Jay Dyer (Jay's Analysis) besides having experienced acquaintance of three Greek Orthodox. Only with one did I get an exercise on the "filioque". The two others had flaked out on Orthodoxy. One became an evangelical and the other was like a syncretic Buddhist.

    After that, I dismiss all the Greek Orthodox and think they owe everybody a sincere apology about the filioque, and I prefer to make fun of them for navel-gazing or omphaloskepsis, from the Ancient Greek words ὀμφᾰλός (omphalós, lit. 'navel') and σκέψῐς (sképsis, lit. 'viewing, examination, speculation'). The monks of Mount Athos, Greece, were described as Omphalopsychians by J.G. Millingen, writing in the 1830s, who says they "...pretended or fancied that they experienced celestial joys when gazing on their umbilical region, in converse with the Deity", etc.

    As far as a more serious or worthwhile response, I may not have it. From the "Monk's Ladder", Guigo the Carthusian recommends a four rung ladder, reading as the bottom or first rung, meditation as the second rung, prayer as the third rung, and contemplation as the fourth rung. According to him the fourth rung can't be forced but the way up to it can be cultivated and with God's grace can be obtained and then with grace further guided to benefit the Church and the soul, etc.