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Author Topic: The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies  (Read 2361 times)

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Re: The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2020, 09:28:21 PM »
You say "sacraments" without "solemn ceremonies".  Isn't there a degree of uncertainty whether a priest, simply reciting "This is My Body" and "This is the Chalice of My Blood", outside of Mass, is valid?  If I recall correctly, +Williamson expressed some doubt.  Would it be any more probably valid, if a priest were only to say the part of the canon that incorporates these prayers, and nothing else?

I know the 1983 CIC refers to this scenario as "nefas est", the 1917 Code forbids it (per Woywod/Smith) but the commentary does not use those words.

I think of it as kind of like going in and tinkering with computer source code --- you have no idea what else it is going to affect.  Back in the old DOS days, I would amuse myself sometimes by opening GIF and JPG code, going in and jacking it up at random, and seeing what it made the image look like.  "Chewed out little pieces" is about the best way to describe the result.
I was always taught that it is, indeed, valid. For instance, a satanic (catholic) priest who consecrates in a satanic black mass: it is a valid consecrated Host.

Re: The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2020, 11:29:19 PM »
Obviously, a Satanic mass, although valid if performed by a real priest, gives no graces at all, rather, brings down God’s cursing upon the participants.  
So, yes, I think more graces are available from a complete ceremony. Whether they are received or not is up to the souls of the participants.  This is a somewhat sticky area.  We must be careful not to make rash judgments based upon what happened outwardly.  A Holy Communion received under conditions of great risk, ie. in a POW camp, may confer more graces than that received in an ornate cathedral in context of a reverent Mass.  Remember the widow’s mite worth more than the Pharisee’s gold, or the prayer of the tax collector who went to his home justified while the Pharisee had his reward in the admiration of vain men.


Re: The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2020, 07:25:33 AM »
Obviously, a Satanic mass, although valid if performed by a real priest, gives no graces at all, rather, brings down God’s cursing upon the participants.  
So, yes, I think more graces are available from a complete ceremony. Whether they are received or not is up to the souls of the participants.  This is a somewhat sticky area.  We must be careful not to make rash judgments based upon what happened outwardly.  A Holy Communion received under conditions of great risk, ie. in a POW camp, may confer more graces than that received in an ornate cathedral in context of a reverent Mass.  Remember the widow’s mite worth more than the Pharisee’s gold, or the prayer of the tax collector who went to his home justified while the Pharisee had his reward in the admiration of vain men.
Nice answer.  :popcorn:

Re: The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2020, 07:33:12 AM »
I know that it is valid, but I'm talking about graces received, not of validity. For instance, if a baby baptized without the cerimonies of baptism would have less graces to be a good batpized person than the baby baptized with the entire cerimony (maybe that is why some priests do the "complement of baptism" for people baptized in the Novus Ordo) ; or a priest consecrated without the anointing of the holy oils, etc.

In other words, are these cerimonies of the Church instituted just to simbolize the sacred aspect of the sacraments or do they really confer grace? (Second grace or actual grace).
Two kinds of grace: actual grace and sanctifying grace.  Read your catechism.
.
Grace from baptism places an indelible mark on the soul.  You can't get more or less indelible.

Re: The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2020, 07:45:44 AM »
Two kinds of grace: actual grace and sanctifying grace.  Read your catechism.
.
Grace from baptism places an indelible mark on the soul.  You can't get more or less indelible.
I know that sacrament of Baptism gives the First santifyng grace and an indelible spiritual mark, but I am not talking about the sacrament itself, but the cerimonies that surrounds it, witch I belive they confer the Second sanctifyng grace or actual graces.