Author Topic: The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies  (Read 240 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline neto

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Reputation: +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies
« on: September 15, 2020, 12:11:14 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I would like to know the following: 

    Let us suppose that a the priest, when conferring a sacrament, used ONLY MATTER AND FORM (that is to say, without the other ceremonies instituted by the Church). Would the sacrament produce its TOTAL EFFICACY IN ALL ITS ASPECTS in the same way as if the established ceremonies had been used?


    For example, a bishop when ordaining a priest anoints the hands of the future priest with sacred oil; he prays upon him and asks the Holy Spirit to dwell in him. Finally, the form is used for the validity of the sacrament of order, so that he becomes a priest; and even after the matter and form being conferred, others prayers are prayed.


    Now, do these prayers really make a significant difference in that priest, so that something would be missing if the priest did not receive these prayers and ceremonies? An accessory grace comes from these ceremonies, for example?


    Thank you.

    Offline Seraphina

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 838
    • Reputation: +640/-127
    • Gender: Female
    Re: The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies
    « Reply #1 on: September 15, 2020, 02:20:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • II believe what you describe is valid.  A baptism is valid without the entire ceremony.  Communion may be administered outside of Holy Mass.  A person may receive Extreme Unction while dying on the battlefield.  Naturally, it is better to have the full ceremony, but circumstances sometimes prevent that from happening.  
    It would be unusual for a bishop to ordain a priest in the manner you describe, but it might be done in the case of a conditional ordination, or if it must be done quickly, as under persecution.  One wouldn’t risk a full ordination ceremony if Catholics were in danger of being immediately hauled off to prison or martyrdom.


    Offline songbird

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3804
    • Reputation: +1377/-176
    • Gender: Female
    Re: The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies
    « Reply #2 on: September 15, 2020, 04:47:54 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Am I right to understand that Bishop Sanborn consecrated priest with One Hand Ordination?  If so, why not 2 hands ?
    ?

    Offline SimpleMan

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 764
    • Reputation: +272/-69
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies
    « Reply #3 on: September 15, 2020, 06:08:25 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You say "sacraments" without "solemn ceremonies".  Isn't there a degree of uncertainty whether a priest, simply reciting "This is My Body" and "This is the Chalice of My Blood", outside of Mass, is valid?  If I recall correctly, +Williamson expressed some doubt.  Would it be any more probably valid, if a priest were only to say the part of the canon that incorporates these prayers, and nothing else?

    I know the 1983 CIC refers to this scenario as "nefas est", the 1917 Code forbids it (per Woywod/Smith) but the commentary does not use those words.

    I think of it as kind of like going in and tinkering with computer source code --- you have no idea what else it is going to affect.  Back in the old DOS days, I would amuse myself sometimes by opening GIF and JPG code, going in and jacking it up at random, and seeing what it made the image look like.  "Chewed out little pieces" is about the best way to describe the result.

    Offline neto

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 5
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies
    « Reply #4 on: September 15, 2020, 09:11:19 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • II believe what you describe is valid.  A baptism is valid without the entire ceremony.  Communion may be administered outside of Holy Mass.  A person may receive Extreme Unction while dying on the battlefield.  Naturally, it is better to have the full ceremony, but circumstances sometimes prevent that from happening.  
    It would be unusual for a bishop to ordain a priest in the manner you describe, but it might be done in the case of a conditional ordination, or if it must be done quickly, as under persecution.  One wouldn’t risk a full ordination ceremony if Catholics were in danger of being immediately hauled off to prison or martyrdom.
    I know that it is valid, but I'm talking about graces received, not of validity. For instance, if a baby baptized without the cerimonies of baptism would have less graces to be a good batpized person than the baby baptized with the entire cerimony (maybe that is why some priests do the "complement of baptism" for people baptized in the Novus Ordo) ; or a priest consecrated without the anointing of the holy oils, etc.

    In other words, are these cerimonies of the Church instituted just to simbolize the sacred aspect of the sacraments or do they really confer grace? (Second grace or actual grace).


    Offline neto

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 5
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies
    « Reply #5 on: September 15, 2020, 09:28:21 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You say "sacraments" without "solemn ceremonies".  Isn't there a degree of uncertainty whether a priest, simply reciting "This is My Body" and "This is the Chalice of My Blood", outside of Mass, is valid?  If I recall correctly, +Williamson expressed some doubt.  Would it be any more probably valid, if a priest were only to say the part of the canon that incorporates these prayers, and nothing else?

    I know the 1983 CIC refers to this scenario as "nefas est", the 1917 Code forbids it (per Woywod/Smith) but the commentary does not use those words.

    I think of it as kind of like going in and tinkering with computer source code --- you have no idea what else it is going to affect.  Back in the old DOS days, I would amuse myself sometimes by opening GIF and JPG code, going in and jacking it up at random, and seeing what it made the image look like.  "Chewed out little pieces" is about the best way to describe the result.
    I was always taught that it is, indeed, valid. For instance, a satanic (catholic) priest who consecrates in a satanic black mass: it is a valid consecrated Host.

    Offline Seraphina

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 838
    • Reputation: +640/-127
    • Gender: Female
    Re: The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies
    « Reply #6 on: September 15, 2020, 11:29:19 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Obviously, a Satanic mass, although valid if performed by a real priest, gives no graces at all, rather, brings down God’s cursing upon the participants.  
    So, yes, I think more graces are available from a complete ceremony. Whether they are received or not is up to the souls of the participants.  This is a somewhat sticky area.  We must be careful not to make rash judgments based upon what happened outwardly.  A Holy Communion received under conditions of great risk, ie. in a POW camp, may confer more graces than that received in an ornate cathedral in context of a reverent Mass.  Remember the widow’s mite worth more than the Pharisee’s gold, or the prayer of the tax collector who went to his home justified while the Pharisee had his reward in the admiration of vain men.

    Offline neto

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 5
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies
    « Reply #7 on: September 16, 2020, 07:25:33 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Obviously, a Satanic mass, although valid if performed by a real priest, gives no graces at all, rather, brings down God’s cursing upon the participants.  
    So, yes, I think more graces are available from a complete ceremony. Whether they are received or not is up to the souls of the participants.  This is a somewhat sticky area.  We must be careful not to make rash judgments based upon what happened outwardly.  A Holy Communion received under conditions of great risk, ie. in a POW camp, may confer more graces than that received in an ornate cathedral in context of a reverent Mass.  Remember the widow’s mite worth more than the Pharisee’s gold, or the prayer of the tax collector who went to his home justified while the Pharisee had his reward in the admiration of vain men.
    Nice answer.  :popcorn:


    Offline Venantius0518

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 277
    • Reputation: +59/-27
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies
    « Reply #8 on: September 16, 2020, 07:33:12 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I know that it is valid, but I'm talking about graces received, not of validity. For instance, if a baby baptized without the cerimonies of baptism would have less graces to be a good batpized person than the baby baptized with the entire cerimony (maybe that is why some priests do the "complement of baptism" for people baptized in the Novus Ordo) ; or a priest consecrated without the anointing of the holy oils, etc.

    In other words, are these cerimonies of the Church instituted just to simbolize the sacred aspect of the sacraments or do they really confer grace? (Second grace or actual grace).
    Two kinds of grace: actual grace and sanctifying grace.  Read your catechism.
    .
    Grace from baptism places an indelible mark on the soul.  You can't get more or less indelible.

    Offline neto

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 5
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies
    « Reply #9 on: September 16, 2020, 07:45:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Two kinds of grace: actual grace and sanctifying grace.  Read your catechism.
    .
    Grace from baptism places an indelible mark on the soul.  You can't get more or less indelible.
    I know that sacrament of Baptism gives the First santifyng grace and an indelible spiritual mark, but I am not talking about the sacrament itself, but the cerimonies that surrounds it, witch I belive they confer the Second sanctifyng grace or actual graces.

    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1199/-4678
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The sacraments used without their solemn ceremonies
    « Reply #10 on: September 17, 2020, 10:56:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I have heard that in China it was hot unheard of for an underground bishop to meet with the seminarian in secret and ordain him in secret outside of the eyes of the government. 


     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16