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Author Topic: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...  (Read 5101 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2023, 06:57:36 AM »
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  • I am paraphrasing, I don't remember the exact quote or chapter from Ascent of Mt Carmel. The lesson was about mortifying desires. Hence why I also quoted Solomon. He also did not mortify his desires and look what happened to him.
    Mortifications of desires can be someone that is overlooked to the great determinant of spiritual religious.

    A good example is fasting. It is good to fast, but if you are desiring food while you fast then you a hindering your progress. Once I learnt this I realise how much better I could have done this years lent, I was so hungry I did not mortify my desire for the 1 meal...

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #16 on: November 12, 2023, 06:58:00 AM »
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  • Mortifications of desires can be someone that is overlooked to the great determinant of spiritual religious.

    A good example is fasting. It is good to fast, but if you are desiring food while you fast then you a hindering your progress. Once I learnt this I realise how much better I could have done this years lent, I was so hungry I did not mortify my desire for the 1 meal...
    Something*


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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #17 on: November 12, 2023, 06:59:57 AM »
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  • Mortifications of desires can be someone that is overlooked to the great determinant of spiritual religious.

    A good example is fasting. It is good to fast, but if you are desiring food while you fast then you a hindering your progress. Once I learnt this I realise how much better I could have done this years lent, I was so hungry I did not mortify my desire for the 1 meal...
    In this case thinking about and desiring the upcoming food defeated the spirit and point of the fast. Sure still better to fast than not to fast, but it could be much more profitable and pleasing in God's sight had I mortified my desire. This is just one example.

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #18 on: November 12, 2023, 06:39:16 PM »
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  • Ok, everyone here is familiar with the Adam and Eve story but often the Catholic explanation is that the reason Eve was tempted was because Adam was supposed to be there to keep an eye on her and protect her from Satan and tell him to go kick rocks but he wasn't and she fell as a result and influenced him to fall also.  It's known as the Sin of Adam because ultimately it was up to him, etc. 

    Where this explanation, or other similar Catholic explanations, don't fully make sense is if they were both in a state of Original Innocence and didn't have concupisence and all the other issues that Original Sin brings then why did Adam need to be there to babysit her or protect her?  Death wasn't even a thing yet, and she should have just known it was wrong based on what Adam told her and should have been just as capable to tell the Devil to go kick rocks as Adam since she had nothing to fear as fear wasn't a thing yet either.

    I know women, by nature, are scared of basically everything (yes I know there's exceptions), but that's after Original Sin, not before, so the Catholic explanations for this don't make a lot of sense. 

    Anyone know of a better explanation or a way to reconcile this with how they supposedly had Original Sin defects or affects before Original Sin was even a thing?  In the state of Original Innocence why did Adam need to be there to protect her or make sure she didn't do something dumb?  She also had Original Innocence. 

    Put in anonymous thread because wasn't entirely sure where to put this otherwise plus some may want to retain anonyminity with their replies. 
    From what I've read, it is called the sin of Adam because he was the head and leader of Eve.  She was created as his help mate.  If Adam would have said no to Eve and corrected her, the original sin would not have passed down to his offspring. 
    I have never heard that he was suppose to "babysit" her.

    And the woman answered him, (the serpent) saying: Of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat; and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die the death.
    And the serpent said to the woman:  No, you will not die the death.
    For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as God's, knowing good and evil.

    The first fault is that Eve doubted God's word.  The devil accused God of lying and Eve continued to listen.  Second she believed the word of Satan, that they would become as God's.

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #19 on: November 12, 2023, 07:22:19 PM »
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  • I think the answer is as simple as "they had free will and abused it." There's really nothing more too it. Some angels also fell and had a bunch of knowledge etc but still chose to go against God. Satan basically was like "not Your will but mine" same with Eve and Adam.  


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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #20 on: November 12, 2023, 08:18:33 PM »
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  • I always just assumed that Original Sin came down to us from both parents.

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #21 on: November 12, 2023, 08:19:17 PM »
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  • I always just assumed that Original Sin came down to us from both parents.
    That was me.  I have no reason to be anonymous about this answer.

    Just forgot to check the box.

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #22 on: November 12, 2023, 08:50:46 PM »
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  • Ok, everyone here is familiar with the Adam and Eve story but often the Catholic explanation is that the reason Eve was tempted was because Adam was supposed to be there to keep an eye on her and protect her from Satan and tell him to go kick rocks but he wasn't and she fell as a result and influenced him to fall also.  It's known as the Sin of Adam because ultimately it was up to him, etc. 
    I heard this also when I first started to take religion seriously.  The only people I've ever heard this "explanation" were from conservative lay-apologists.  Think people like Scott Hahn, though I can't say he's ever given this explanation.  I really don't remember many names anymore as I haven't paid any attention to these kinds of people in a long time.  I certainly have never read this in any catechism nor have I ever heard a traditional priest (I do not count FSSP priests in this category) say this.

    Frankly, it sounds more like a conservative Protestant explanation made up by folks who consider themselves to be incredibly smart and spiritual rather than a Catholic explanation grounded in good theology.


    Offline Emilio

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #23 on: November 12, 2023, 09:24:56 PM »
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  • From what I've read, it is called the sin of Adam because he was the head and leader of Eve.  She was created as his help mate.  If Adam would have said no to Eve and corrected her, the original sin would not have passed down to his offspring.
    Some Fathers argue that the sin of Eve was not to eat the apple, but to add to the words of God, for He said 16 And he commanded him, saying: Of every tree of paradise thou shalt eat. 17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death. but she said 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat: and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die.
    Thus bitting the apple was only Adam's sin, for Eve did not sin by eating it.

    Other Fathers interpret the underlined this way: Eve acted as a figure of the Church, reasoning upon the Commandments of God.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #24 on: November 12, 2023, 09:51:31 PM »
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  • Someone who studied theology (in a seminary for example) should chime in, but what I picked up from the upper year seminarians:

    Adam was the head of the human race, so his sin was necessary to pass on an Original Sin to all man's descendants. If he had said "no" to Eve, there would be no Original Sin passed on. That much I'm sure about. Also, it WAS a fruit (not something like "sex"), not necessarily an apple (despite countless works of art over the past 6000 years). And of course, it was the disobedience to God's commandment that was the mortal sin.

    But I also recall something about a necessary link between passing on Original Sin, concupiscence, and the male generative act. Am I correct, or am I remembering something wrong? I didn't get to 4th year (Year 1 of Theology) so that's why I'm asking for any ex-seminarian with some formal theology training to chime in. 
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    Offline EWPJ

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #25 on: November 12, 2023, 10:33:59 PM »
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  • Some Fathers argue that the sin of Eve was not to eat the apple, but to add to the words of God, for He said 16 And he commanded him, saying: Of every tree of paradise thou shalt eat. 17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat. For in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death. but she said 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of paradise, God hath commanded us that we should not eat: and that we should not touch it, lest perhaps we die.
    Thus bitting the apple was only Adam's sin, for Eve did not sin by eating it.

    Other Fathers interpret the underlined this way: Eve acted as a figure of the Church, reasoning upon the Commandments of God.

    Wow.  That's interesting.  I never heard that explanation.  I guess I don't get why her eating it was not a sin. 

    I heard this also when I first started to take religion seriously.  The only people I've ever heard this "explanation" were from conservative lay-apologists.  Think people like Scott Hahn, though I can't say he's ever given this explanation.  I really don't remember many names anymore as I haven't paid any attention to these kinds of people in a long time.  I certainly have never read this in any catechism nor have I ever heard a traditional priest (I do not count FSSP priests in this category) say this.

    Frankly, it sounds more like a conservative Protestant explanation made up by folks who consider themselves to be incredibly smart and spiritual rather than a Catholic explanation grounded in good theology.

    Yeah, I didn't fully "buy" the explanation but thought it was most likely the deeper meaning behind how and why it happened considering they both were in a state of Original Innocence.  I will likely just dismiss the theory and consider consulting more of the Church Fathers on this matter.  Thanks for your input.

    Someone who studied theology (in a seminary for example) should chime in, but what I picked up from the upper year seminarians:

    Adam was the head of the human race, so his sin was necessary to pass on an Original Sin to all man's descendants. If he had said "no" to Eve, there would be no Original Sin passed on. That much I'm sure about. Also, it WAS a fruit (not something like "sex"), not necessarily an apple (despite countless works of art over the past 6000 years). And of course, it was the disobedience to God's commandment that was the mortal sin.

    But I also recall something about a necessary link between passing on Original Sin, concupiscence, and the male generative act. Am I correct, or am I remembering something wrong? I didn't get to 4th year (Year 1 of Theology) so that's why I'm asking for any ex-seminarian with some formal theology training to chime in. 


    Thanks for jumping in Matthew, this is still helpful.  In your 3rd paragraph maybe you're referring to the theory that the soul is passed on from Adam (men) but the body is passed on from Eve (women.)  But I honestly can't remember if that was an allowable opinion or if it was condemned heresy so tread carefully.  I just know I heard that theory from somewhere but can't remember where. 


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #26 on: November 12, 2023, 11:00:09 PM »
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  • NOPE the soul is definitely created individually by God. The passing on of Original Sin has nothing to do with the origin of the soul.

    And yes, that's not just maybe heretical. I think that's pretty solidly heretical. The soul has to be created by God because it's spiritual, and a thing has to have a proportionate cause. A fleshly creature (even an immaterial soul) can't just "create immortal souls". And let's face it, our souls aren't involved in making a baby. It's all auto-pilot, done by the body. My body (and/or my wife's body) which is 100% flesh CERTAINLY can't create something immortal, immaterial, and higher than itself, like a human soul. So yeah, God would have to create that part of a new human being.

    I'm also pretty sure that St. Thomas taught that Original Sin was passed on by the man. At least that's what all my Thomistic upper-years at the seminary were saying. What I'm less sure about is HOW EXACTLY the man passes on that Original Sin.
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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #27 on: November 12, 2023, 11:26:02 PM »
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  • NOPE the soul is definitely created individually by God. The passing on of Original Sin has nothing to do with the origin of the soul.

    And yes, that's not just maybe heretical. I think that's pretty solidly heretical. The soul has to be created by God because it's spiritual, and a thing has to have a proportionate cause. A fleshly creature (even an immaterial soul) can't just "create immortal souls". And let's face it, our souls aren't involved in making a baby. It's all auto-pilot, done by the body. My body (and/or my wife's body) which is 100% flesh CERTAINLY can't create something immortal, immaterial, and higher than itself, like a human soul. So yeah, God would have to create that part of a new human being.

    I'm also pretty sure that St. Thomas taught that Original Sin was passed on by the man. At least that's what all my Thomistic upper-years at the seminary were saying. What I'm less sure about is HOW EXACTLY the man passes on that Original Sin.

    I agree but I'm sure I explained it wrong, or rather didn't explain it enough.  The soul and body is made by God of course as He is the Creator and I think the theory posited the same but I think the theory was along the lines of each gender had it's particular part in that process or something to that extent. I first read about it on this site somewhere but can't remember where and can't remember exactly what it said but reflecting on it more I think it was an early Church heresy or error, either from Origen, Tertullian, or the Gnostics.

    Either way it's not what you were talking about so it can be rightly disregarded.  

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #28 on: November 13, 2023, 04:22:30 AM »
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  • How about Cardinal Ratzinger's version of Original Sin found in his book In The Beginning:

    ‘The account [in Genesis] tells us that sin begets sin, and that therefore all the sins of history are interlinked. Theology refers to this state of affairs by the certainly misleading and imprecise term ‘original sin.’ What does this mean? Nothing seems to us today to be stranger or, indeed, more absurd than to insist upon original sin, since, according to our way of thinking, guilt can only be something very personal and since God does not run a cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρ, in which one’s relatives are imprisoned, because he is a liberating God of love, who calls each one by name. What does original sin mean, then, when we interpret it correctly?.... Sin is a loss of relationship,…therefore it is not restricted to the individual. At the very moment that a person begins human existence, he or she is confronted by a sin damaged world.’ Consequently, each person is, from the very start, damaged in relationships.’ (p, 72.)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #29 on: November 13, 2023, 06:50:39 AM »
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  • Someone who studied theology (in a seminary for example) should chime in, but what I picked up from the upper year seminarians:

    Adam was the head of the human race, so his sin was necessary to pass on an Original Sin to all man's descendants. If he had said "no" to Eve, there would be no Original Sin passed on. That much I'm sure about. Also, it WAS a fruit (not something like "sex"), not necessarily an apple (despite countless works of art over the past 6000 years). And of course, it was the disobedience to God's commandment that was the mortal sin.

    But I also recall something about a necessary link between passing on Original Sin, concupiscence, and the male generative act. Am I correct, or am I remembering something wrong? I didn't get to 4th year (Year 1 of Theology) so that's why I'm asking for any ex-seminarian with some formal theology training to chime in.

    This is my understanding as well, that Original Sin passed down through Adam, and had he said no to Eve, it would not have been transmitted to rest of humanity.