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Author Topic: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...  (Read 4986 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2023, 08:17:58 AM »
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  • “the man could not bear to be severed from his only companion, even though this involved a partnership in sin. He was not on this account less culpable, but sinned with his eyes open.”

    St. Augustine.

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #31 on: November 13, 2023, 05:35:58 PM »
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  • This has been a fascinating topic.

    I note that Eve is not even mentioned in the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Original Sin.  The entry says Original Sin is the Sin of Adam and that Adam transmits death to his children.  I've always assumed that the Immaculate Conception was simply a truth transmitted through Tradition with no real explanation as to how it could be other than God's will that it be so.  But I now see that the dogma also has very logical roots in theological and even practical terms.  The fact that Original Sin is the sin of Adam and it is he who transmits that sin to all mankind through the centuries even to this day, then Blessed Mary couldn't be subject to Original Sin--in fact, it would be absurd to consider her subject to Original Sin--as she is not the product of Adam's conception.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #32 on: November 13, 2023, 05:55:40 PM »
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  • Venerable Mary of Agreda

    he Mystical City of God

    Volume 1

    Chapter XV: OF THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION OF THE MOTHER OF GOD THROUGH DIVINE POWER.



    Quote
    210. He endowed these parents with abundant graces and blessings of his right hand, and enriched them with all virtues, with enlightenments of divine science and with the gifts of the Holy Ghost. After having announced to the two saints, Joachim and Anne, that He would grant them a Daughter, admirable and blessed among women, He permitted the work of the first Conception to take place, namely, that of the most pure body of Mary. The age of Anne, when She married Joachim, was twenty-four, and that of Joachim, forty-six. Twenty years they lived in married life without having an issue, and thus Anne, at the same time of the Conception of her Daughter, was forty-four years old, and saint Joachim sixty-six. Although the conception happened according to the ordinary course of nature, yet the Most High freed it from imperfections and disorders, permitting only what was strictly required according to nature, in order that the proper material might be furnished for the formation of the most perfect substance within the limits of a mere creature.



    Offline trad123

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #33 on: November 13, 2023, 05:58:34 PM »
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  • Adding to Reply # 32

    Ibid.



    Quote
    212. But in this Conception, although the father was not naturally sterile, yet on account of his age and moderation, his natural powers were in a measure suppressed and weakened; and therefore he was enlivened, restored and enabled to act on his part with entire perfection and with the plenitude of his faculties, proportionately to the sterility of the mother. In both of them nature and grace concurred; the former briefly, with measure, and in that which was necessary; the latter overflowingly, powerfully and generously; absorbing, yet not confounding nature, exalting it and perfecting it in a miraculous manner. Thus grace was the origin of this Conception, while it called into its service the activity of nature in so far as was necessary for the birth of that ineffable Daughter from her natural parents.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #34 on: November 13, 2023, 06:02:39 PM »
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  • Ibid.


    Quote
    214. Much like to this, though much more wonderful, was the miracle of the Conception of Mary most holy in her mother Anne. The parents were so entirely governed by grace and withdrawn from concupiscence and delectation, that the accidental imperfections, which ordinarily are the material or the instruments of conception, and which induce original sin, were altogether wanting. Thus was furnished a material exempt from imperfection and furnished in such a manner that the act itself was meritorious. Hence in so far as this act was concerned it could easily be free from sin or imperfection, even if divine Providence had not previously arranged every particular of this event. This miracle the Almighty reserved solely for Her, who was to be a Mother worthy of Himself. For if it was proper that the material part of his being should have its origin according to the order maintained in the conception of the other children of Adam, it was likewise eminently proper that, without destroying nature, grace should concur in it with all its efficacy and power, and that it should excel in Her and act in Her more efficaciously than in all the children of Adam; yea, be greater than even in Adam and Eve, who gave origin to the corruption of nature and to its disorderly concupiscence.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #35 on: November 13, 2023, 06:15:23 PM »
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  • the material part of his being should have its origin according to the order maintained in the conception of the other children of Adam,


    I don't have a physical copy of Mystical City of God to compare to, but I think "his" is probably a typo, and should read "her",  due to the context, and especially since the pronoun isn't capitalized. Regardless, the other two paragraphs are clear that Joachim begot her.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #36 on: November 13, 2023, 06:18:29 PM »
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  • This has been a fascinating topic.

    I note that Eve is not even mentioned in the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Original Sin.  The entry says Original Sin is the Sin of Adam and that Adam transmits death to his children.  I've always assumed that the Immaculate Conception was simply a truth transmitted through Tradition with no real explanation as to how it could be other than God's will that it be so.  But I now see that the dogma also has very logical roots in theological and even practical terms.  The fact that Original Sin is the sin of Adam and it is he who transmits that sin to all mankind through the centuries even to this day, then Blessed Mary couldn't be subject to Original Sin--in fact, it would be absurd to consider her subject to Original Sin--as she is not the product of Adam's conception.

    I'm not sure this follows.  Our Lady herself was still conceived of a man, even if her Son was not.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #37 on: November 13, 2023, 06:23:01 PM »
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  • Ibid.

    that the accidental imperfections, which ordinarily are the material or the instruments of conception, and which induce original sin

    This seems rather off.  It isn't concupiscence that transmits (induces) Original Sin, nor would lack of concupiscence prevent its transmission.


    Änσnymσus

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #38 on: November 13, 2023, 06:28:06 PM »
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  • The Life of the Blessed Virgin Mary

    Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich

    II. THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION

        1. JOACHIM AND ST. ANNE MEET BENEATH THE GOLDEN GATE.



    https://www.ecatholic2000.com/anne/lom9.shtml



    Quote
    It was explained to me here that the Blessed Virgin was begotten by her parents in holy obedience and complete purity of heart, and that thereafter they lived together in continence in the greatest devoutness and fear of God. I was at the same time clearly instructed how immeasurably the holiness of children was encouraged by the purity, chastity, and continence of their parents and by their resistance to all unclean temptations; and how continence after conception preserves the fruit of the womb from many sinful impulses. In general, I was given an overflowing abundance of knowledge about the roots of deformity and sin.


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #39 on: November 13, 2023, 08:49:57 PM »
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  • Quote
    The fact that Original Sin is the sin of Adam and it is he who transmits that sin to all mankind through the centuries even to this day, then Blessed Mary couldn't be subject to Original Sin--in fact, it would be absurd to consider her subject to Original Sin--as she is not the product of Adam's conception.
    She most certainly is the "product of Adam's conception". She is a direct descendent from Adam. Her parents were Joachim and Anna. Every human is this world came from Adam, even Jesus himself through Mary, a daughter of Adam. The difference between us and Jesus is that Jesus Human Body was conceived by the Power of the Holy Spirit. 
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #40 on: November 13, 2023, 09:10:03 PM »
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  • Quote
    The parents were so entirely governed by grace and withdrawn from concupiscence and delectation, that the accidental imperfections, which ordinarily are the material or the instruments of conception, and which induce original sin, were altogether wanting. Thus was furnished a material exempt from imperfection and furnished in such a manner that the act itself was meritorious. Hence in so far as this act was concerned it could easily be free from sin or imperfection, even if divine Providence had not previously arranged every particular of this event.


    This seems rather off.  It isn't concupiscence that transmits (induces) Original Sin, nor would lack of concupiscence prevent its transmission.




    Can it not be said that original sin is both a privation of original justice AND the guilt of concupiscence?

    The guilt is by reason of possession of concupiscence.



    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2082.htm#article3


    Quote
    Accordingly the privation of original justice, whereby the will was made subject to God, is the formal element in original sin; while every other disorder of the soul's powers, is a kind of material element in respect of original sin.


    Consequently, Sts. Anne and Joachim could not impart what they did not have; original justice, but by a singular grace the Lord imparted to Mary original justice, and prevented the passing of concupiscence.


    If a child were miraculously begotten without concupiscence on the part of its parents, would it be tainted by original sin? 

    Or merely be deprived of original justice?







    Offline Yeti

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #41 on: November 13, 2023, 09:30:30 PM »
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  • I agree in general that the account of Adam and Eve given in Genesis doesn't quite add up, but I think that's just because it doesn't really tell us all the details of the story that would make it comprehensible in a fuller context. For example, it doesn't tell us all that much about why they ate the forbidden fruit, especially in Adam's case. He just says his wife gave it to him to eat, and he ate it. But it doesn't actually give us the reason why Adam ate it, or whether his excuse is accurate, which wasn't much of an excuse to begin with.

    There are a lot of things about the Garden of Eden and these events that I would love to know, but I think we'll have to wait till the Last Judgment to really know and understand exactly what went down in that garden.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #42 on: November 14, 2023, 07:12:39 AM »
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  • I agree in general that the account of Adam and Eve given in Genesis doesn't quite add up, but I think that's just because it doesn't really tell us all the details of the story that would make it comprehensible in a fuller context. For example, it doesn't tell us all that much about why they ate the forbidden fruit, especially in Adam's case. He just says his wife gave it to him to eat, and he ate it. But it doesn't actually give us the reason why Adam ate it, or whether his excuse is accurate, which wasn't much of an excuse to begin with.

    We do know, however, that concupiscence could not have played a role, because Adam and Even were not subject to it.  Their sin would have to have been purely in the will and the intellect.  Thus, the motivation was similar to that of the fallen angels, where they wanted to become like God.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #43 on: November 14, 2023, 07:21:27 AM »
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  • Can it not be said that original sin is both a privation of original justice AND the guilt of concupiscence?

    The guilt is by reason of possession of concupiscence.

    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2082.htm#article3

    Consequently, Sts. Anne and Joachim could not impart what they did not have; original justice, but by a singular grace the Lord imparted to Mary original justice, and prevented the passing of concupiscence.

    If a child were miraculously begotten without concupiscence on the part of its parents, would it be tainted by original sin?

    Or merely be deprived of original justice?

    So, one is not "guilty" of concupiscence, but concupiscence is an effect or consequence of the Original Sin.  Original Sin resulted in a privation of Original Justice and concupiscence.  So there's distinction between the actual guilt of the Original Sin and the consequences of / punishments for the sin.  There is not "guilt of concupiscence" per se.

    There's no reason the lack of concupiscence during the procreation of a child would prevent the transmission of Original Sin.  Nor would such a conception prevent the transmission of concupiscence alone (leaving the soul in a state where its deprived of Original Justice but not tainted with concupiscence).  Concupiscence is in fact a by-product of Original Sin.  Where there's Original Sin, there's concupiscence.

    Also, concupiscence is a habitual state to which all those in Original Sin are subject, so there's no such thing as a conception without concupiscence.  There could be (and likely was, in this case) a conception without their having actually succuмbed to concupiscence in the act of conceiving, but concupiscence was with them generally speaking due to their having been in Original Sin.

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: The explanation of the Adam and Eve story doesn't fully compute...
    « Reply #44 on: November 14, 2023, 06:33:57 PM »
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  • I'm not sure this follows.  Our Lady herself was still conceived of a man, even if her Son was not.
    Of course, you're right.  I wasn't thinking.