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Author Topic: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?  (Read 6825 times)

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Offline ElAusente

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Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
« Reply #90 on: December 03, 2020, 03:08:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on December 03, 2020, 10:11:03 AM
    1570, 1604, 1634, 1884, 1920, 1962

    What was the age of the 1569 missal?
    What were the changes in 1570, 1604, 1634, 1884, 1920?
    What about the 1954 missal, that changed the entire Holy Week celebrations, cut them down to like 1/4 and changed the times?
    What about the 1965 missal?

    I have read in many places that one could walk into a mass in the 8th century with their 1945 Lasance Missal and would be right at home.
    The 1570 missal issued by Pius V was substantially the 1474 missal, which was the first printed. We know for a fact that a 1494 printed copy was used to prepare the 1570 missal. The 1604 missal's most noteworthy change was the Gregorian calendar, but it included other changes such as saying the Kyrie at low Mass at the center of the altar and saying "Haec quotiescuмque feceritis, etc." while genuflecting instead of during the elevation. Feasts suppressed by Pius V were restored such as the Presentation of Our Lady, St Joachim, St Anne, St Anthony of Padua. The other editions through 1884 would have included new feasts, new saints, changes to ranks of feast, changes of prefaces, etc. The 1920 missal included the new calendar system of Pius X and some other new texts. Pius XII did not issue a new typical edition, although he did allow the printing of the new Holy Week in missals (they were also printed in a separate book). The 1965 "missal" was not a new typical edition.

    Whoever told you that was mistaken, although it depends on what you mean by "right at home." First of all, there was tremendous diversity at that time within the western church. The most similar would have been at Rome itself, but there would still be noticeable differences. The various prayers at the foot were not yet developed, the offertory prayers were not yet written. Even propers for Sundays after Pentecost had yet to be composed.
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    Offline claudel

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #91 on: December 03, 2020, 03:19:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElAusente on December 03, 2020, 03:08:08 PM

    The 1570 missal issued by Pius V was substantially the 1474 missal, which was the first printed. We know for a fact that a 1494 printed copy was used to prepare the 1570 missal. The 1604 missal's most noteworthy change was the Gregorian calendar, but it included other changes such as saying the Kyrie at low Mass at the center of the altar and saying "Haec quotiescuмque feceritis, etc." while genuflecting instead of during the elevation. Feasts suppressed by Pius V were restored such as the Presentation of Our Lady, St Joachim, St Anne, St Anthony of Padua. The other editions through 1884 would have included new feasts, new saints, changes to ranks of feast, changes of prefaces, etc. The 1920 missal included the new calendar system of Pius X and some other new texts. Pius XII did not issue a new typical edition, although he did allow the printing of the new Holy Week in missals (they were also printed in a separate book). The 1965 "missal" was not a new typical edition.

    Very helpful information; thank you.
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    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #92 on: December 03, 2020, 03:38:14 PM »
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    • Concerning the question of De musica sacra and other decrees of the SCR, I have in front of me The Celebration of Mass: A Study of the Rubrics of the Roman Missal, 4th ed, "revised throughout in accordance with … the typical edition of the Roman Missal (1962) by the Rev JB O'Connell (1964). In the foreword to the fourth edition, he mentions the 1962 typical edition and new decisions from the SCR as reasons for the new edition. In his sources he includes the decrees of the SCR (1588–1926), the Acta Apostolicae Sedis (1909-1962) [in which SCR decrees were later published), and by name Instructio de Musica Sacra et Sacra Liturgia (S.R.C., 3 September, 1958). 
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    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #93 on: December 03, 2020, 03:44:06 PM »
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    • What O'Connell has to say about typical editions is also helpful. He writes, "By a 'typical edition' of a liturgical book is meant an edition which is published by the Pontifical Polyglot Press of the Vatican (or by another Pontifical printer, with leave of the Sacred Congregation of Rites), each page of it having first been submitted for the approval of the S.R.C. Such an edition must bear a decree of approbation, declaring it a 'typical edition,' and ordering all publishers to conform in detail future editions of the book to this typical one." (7–8)
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #94 on: December 03, 2020, 05:34:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElAusente on December 03, 2020, 03:08:08 PM
    Pius XII did not issue a new typical edition, although he did allow the printing of the new Holy Week in missals (they were also printed in a separate book).

    Ahem...bullshit.

    The new Holy Week ceremonies of 1951-1956 were initially experimental, and based on archaeological modernist liturgical principles.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #95 on: December 03, 2020, 05:50:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 03, 2020, 05:34:36 PM
    Ahem...bullshit.

    The new Holy Week ceremonies of 1951-1956 were initially experimental, and based on archaeological modernist liturgical principles.
    What did I say that was “bullshit?”
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #96 on: December 03, 2020, 05:51:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElAusente on December 03, 2020, 05:50:50 PM
    What did I say that was “bullshit?”
    Quoted above
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #97 on: December 03, 2020, 05:58:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 03, 2020, 05:51:26 PM
    Quoted above
    You’re saying Pius XII _did_ issue a new typical edition? Or that he didn’t allow the new Holy Week to be printed in missals? Or that there wasn’t a separate book?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #98 on: December 03, 2020, 06:05:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElAusente on December 03, 2020, 05:58:03 PM
    You’re saying Pius XII _did_ issue a new typical edition? Or that he didn’t allow the new Holy Week to be printed in missals? Or that there wasn’t a separate book?

    I'm saying that your erection of the issuance of a new typical edition published in the PPP as the barometer of whether or not a change in rubrics represents a new rite is flawed.

    Pius XII issued a new rite of Holy Week, whether or not it appears in the PPP, as it was approved by the SCR.

    Obviously, the modernist liturgical reformers who gave us this new rite of Holy Week wanted to camouflage the extent of the liturgical break by keeping it out of the PPP, precisely so that it would not be presented to the world as a new typical edition.

    Yet that is exactly what it was.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #99 on: December 03, 2020, 06:06:58 PM »
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    • I never claimed that! I’m the one who was questioning Pius X’s reforms!
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #100 on: December 03, 2020, 06:09:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElAusente on December 03, 2020, 06:06:58 PM
    I never claimed that! I’m the one who was questioning Pius X’s reforms!

    Yes, this appears to be your strategy:

    Pretend to be opposed to the modernism, yet spend all your time trying to poke holes in the arguments of those calling out the modernism.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #101 on: December 03, 2020, 06:11:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 03, 2020, 06:05:30 PM
    I'm saying that your erection of the issuance of a new typical edition published in the PPP as the barometer of whether or not a change in rubrics represents a new rite is flawed.

    Pius XII issued a new rite of Holy Week, whether or not it appears in the PPP, as it was approved by the SCR.

    Obviously, the modernist liturgical reformers who gave us this new rite of Holy Week wanted to camouflage the extent of the liturgical break by keeping it out of the PPP, precisely so that it would not be presented to the world as a new typical edition.

    Yet that is exactly what it was.
    The new Holy Week was published by the official Vatican press in a separate book under Pius XII. It was included in the 1962 typical edition as well, so I’m not sure what your getting at. 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #102 on: December 03, 2020, 06:12:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElAusente on December 03, 2020, 06:11:09 PM
    The new Holy Week was published by the official Vatican press in a separate book under Pius XII. It was included in the 1962 typical edition as well, so I’m not sure what your getting at.
    Not sure what that has to do with my post.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #103 on: December 03, 2020, 06:12:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on December 03, 2020, 06:09:55 PM
    Yes, this appears to be your strategy:

    Pretend to be opposed to the modernism, yet spend all your time trying to poke holes in the arguments of those calling out the modernism.
    Bump.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #104 on: December 03, 2020, 06:13:32 PM »
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    • Sean, the fact that Pius XIIs Holy Week changes weren’t part of a new edition proves your point they were experimental.  It wasn’t until J23s 1962 missal that these Holy Week changes were approved by the pope, formally. 
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