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Author Topic: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?  (Read 6612 times)

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Offline ElAusente

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Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
« Reply #60 on: December 02, 2020, 01:01:38 PM »
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  • What are you doing then, playing the Devil's Advocate?
    I did two things. First, I provided docuмentary evidence that saying the propers was permitted by Pius XII. Second, I wished to further explore the question of innovation vs. restoration. The dialogue Mass is rightly seen as an innovation, although to some extent based in a historical precedent. However, Pius X's breviary was just as innovative as later changes, but it is generally not questioned, although this is ceasing to be the case. The reform of music under Pius X could also be argued against in the same way that the dialogue Mass is argued against, i.e. an imposition from above quashing local customs and liturgical development and an exercise in liturgical archaeologism.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #61 on: December 02, 2020, 01:24:44 PM »
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    First, I provided docuмentary evidence that saying the propers was permitted by Pius XII.
    So if Pius XII allowed this permission, it was only localized, because not everyone did it this way.  But that's irrelevant, because when John XXIII issued the 1962 missal, the dialogue mass wasn't part of the revised Latin Mass.  If the Pius XII indult continued, then it's simply a local custom, but it's definitely not part of the liturgy, proper. 
    .
    Or...maybe it was brought back (without the indult) during the period of experimentation between 62 and 69, when much was changed.
    .

    Quote
    Second, I wished to further explore the question of innovation vs. restoration. The dialogue Mass is rightly seen as an innovation, although to some extent based in a historical precedent.
    An indult is not a precedent.  It's a temporary allowance.
    .

    Quote
    However, Pius X's breviary was just as innovative as later changes, but it is generally not questioned, although this is ceasing to be the case. The reform of music under Pius X could also be argued against in the same way that the dialogue Mass is argued against, i.e. an imposition from above quashing local customs and liturgical development and an exercise in liturgical archaeologism.

    The difference is that Pope St Pius X's changes were for the whole latin church; it wasn't an indult or localized.  And his argument for doing so was to reform for modern living but also to return to the former purpose of the breviary - i.e. to say all the psalms in a particular daily/weekly cycle.
    .
    The dialogue mass is not historical (in any aspect) and it was never applied to the whole latin church.  So it's innovative on both levels.


    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #62 on: December 02, 2020, 02:42:39 PM »
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  • So if Pius XII allowed this permission, it was only localized, because not everyone did it this way.  But that's irrelevant, because when John XXIII issued the 1962 missal, the dialogue mass wasn't part of the revised Latin Mass.  If the Pius XII indult continued, then it's simply a local custom, but it's definitely not part of the liturgy, proper.  
    .
    Or...maybe it was brought back (without the indult) during the period of experimentation between 62 and 69, when much was changed.
    .
    An indult is not a precedent.  It's a temporary allowance.
    .

    The difference is that Pope St Pius X's changes were for the whole latin church; it wasn't an indult or localized.  And his argument for doing so was to reform for modern living but also to return to the former purpose of the breviary - i.e. to say all the psalms in a particular daily/weekly cycle.
    .
    The dialogue mass is not historical (in any aspect) and it was never applied to the whole latin church.  So it's innovative on both levels.
    I don't think it's an indult, and I don't see how John XXIII's rubrical changes would rescind a prior instruction from the SCR. Furthermore, St Pius X's changes were not for the whole Latin church. The Benedictines did not revise their psalter at the time, and the Dominican books were reformed at a later date. The Carthusians hadn't changed their liturgical books for centuries until 1981. I don't believe the use of Lyons was changed either by Pius X nor the Mozarabic nor the rite of Braga.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #63 on: December 02, 2020, 03:02:14 PM »
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  • I did two things. First, I provided docuмentary evidence that saying the propers was permitted by Pius XII. Second, I wished to further explore the question of innovation vs. restoration. The dialogue Mass is rightly seen as an innovation, although to some extent based in a historical precedent. However, Pius X's breviary was just as innovative as later changes, but it is generally not questioned, although this is ceasing to be the case. The reform of music under Pius X could also be argued against in the same way that the dialogue Mass is argued against, i.e. an imposition from above quashing local customs and liturgical development and an exercise in liturgical archaeologism.

    Wrong:

    This is far from accurate history.  

    The dialogue Mass did not come down from above, as you would have it, but was a conspiracy of modernist liturgists, working in conjunction through a network of monasteries, protected by liberal bishops, who worked their way up, seeking and gaining supporters from the grass roots to the top.

    Dom Lambert's "Memoirs" were read to us in Liturgy class, and show how he consciously used the cover and privacy of modernist monasteries to hide their experimentation, and actively sought liberal bishops to shelter their modernist congresses, where the experimentation could proceed uninterrupted.  They went from monasteries, to bishops, to cardinals, to Rome.  They falsely reported what "great successes" the dialogue Mass had everywhere, and how much the people wanted it, such that Benedict XV eventually gave experimental permission, reaffirmed by Pius XI, and eventually Pius XII.

    The history of the dialogue Mass mirrors that of the TLM after Vatican II: Some bishop would give permission, and that diocese (e.g., Scranton, PA) would become a foothold from which to branch out from, until Rome finally gave general permission.

    The inception of the dialogue Mass was a modernist grass roots conspiracy from the beginning.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #64 on: December 02, 2020, 03:23:55 PM »
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  • Quote
    I don't think it's an indult,
    It would have to be, because it isn't part of the 1952 or 1955 missals, which were the missals for the entire Latin Church until Pius XII's death.
    .

    Quote
    and I don't see how John XXIII's rubrical changes would rescind a prior instruction from the SCR.
    John XXIII didn't just issue rubric changes.  He issued an entire revised missal, one which is a legal child of Pope St Pius V's Quo Primum, which it was revising.
    .

    Quote
    Furthermore, St Pius X's changes were not for the whole Latin church. The Benedictines did not revise their psalter at the time, and the Dominican books were reformed at a later date. The Carthusians hadn't changed their liturgical books for centuries until 1981. I don't believe the use of Lyons was changed either by Pius X nor the Mozarabic nor the rite of Braga.

    You're not looking at this change in the context of the history of the roman breviary.  When Pope St Pius V issued Quo Primum, he codified not only the missal but also the breviary.  His changes were for the whole latin church, the only exceptions being those 200+ yrs old at the time (which would include all the orders you mentioned above).
    .
    There were multiple minor revisions since St Pius V's 1571, the most recent (for the roman breviary) was Pope Leo XIII.  In St Pius X's docuмent, Divino Afflatu, he said his new breviary was to be used by all those who currently used the roman breviary.  Again, this didn't apply to the religious houses you mentioned, because they were originally exempted in 1571, and they don't use the roman breviary, but the benedictine breviary, or domincan, etc.  So, yes, you are technically correct that Pius X's changes were not for the "whole latin church", but only those which used the roman breviary, which is 99% of religious. 


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #65 on: December 02, 2020, 03:29:38 PM »
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  • Quote
    The reform of music under Pius X could also be argued against in the same way that the dialogue Mass is argued against, i.e. an imposition from above quashing local customs and liturgical development and an exercise in liturgical archaeologism.

    Secondary to Sean's point is that the reform of music was a return to Gregorian chant, which was not "archaeological" in any degree, but promoted by Pope St Gregory the Great himself, and which chant endured for centuries after the 500s.  Gregorian chant is Traditional, (and is further a continuation of Old Testament Jєωιѕн chant), by any test imaginable.

    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #66 on: December 02, 2020, 03:43:44 PM »
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  • Secondary to Sean's point is that the reform of music was a return to Gregorian chant, which was not "archaeological" in any degree, but promoted by Pope St Gregory the Great himself, and which chant endured for centuries after the 500s.  Gregorian chant is Traditional, (and is further a continuation of Old Testament Jєωιѕн chant), by any test imaginable.
    It was archeological becuse they went back to manuscripts and had to determine what was "authentic" chant and what was not.

    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #67 on: December 02, 2020, 03:47:32 PM »
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  • It would have to be, because it isn't part of the 1952 or 1955 missals, which were the missals for the entire Latin Church until Pius XII's death.
    .
    John XXIII didn't just issue rubric changes.  He issued an entire revised missal, one which is a legal child of Pope St Pius V's Quo Primum, which it was revising.
    .

    You're not looking at this change in the context of the history of the roman breviary.  When Pope St Pius V issued Quo Primum, he codified not only the missal but also the breviary.  His changes were for the whole latin church, the only exceptions being those 200+ yrs old at the time (which would include all the orders you mentioned above).
    .
    There were multiple minor revisions since St Pius V's 1571, the most recent (for the roman breviary) was Pope Leo XIII.  In St Pius X's docuмent, Divino Afflatu, he said his new breviary was to be used by all those who currently used the roman breviary.  Again, this didn't apply to the religious houses you mentioned, because they were originally exempted in 1571, and they don't use the roman breviary, but the benedictine breviary, or domincan, etc.  So, yes, you are technically correct that Pius X's changes were not for the "whole latin church", but only those which used the roman breviary, which is 99% of religious.
    So all of the decisions from the SCR are indults because they're not included in the missals?
    Would you classify Pius X's reform of the Divine Office as not ultra vires, then?


    Offline claudel

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #68 on: December 02, 2020, 04:40:35 PM »
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  • How is it a substantial change to the theology of the mass [for the congregation] to say responses with the servers, or to recite something that the people sing at a sung mass?

    In doing figuratively what postconciliar architecture did materially—dispense with the altar rail—congregational participation (i.e., dialogue mass) effectively nullifies the hieratic dimension of the liturgy and replaces it with the theological equivalent of a parliamentary session or, less grandly, a politician's press conference. To continue the analogy, in both liturgical forms someone is in the chair, true enough, but in the latter the shouts from the gallery or the hall are no longer disturbances but are instead an integral component of the process.

    What is more, there is simply no honest or authentic sense in which congregational participation can be argued or understood to be a mere reclaiming of the participatory function nominally ceded to the server in the historico-liturgical development of the Mass. It is hardly coincidental or immaterial or inconsequential that, right up to the conciliar revolution, the server, in his capacity as stand-in for the congregation, was rubrically required to be a man in orders, at least normatively. To shift, if I may, from the general to the particular, even when I became an altar boy, less than ten years before the opening of the council in October 1962, my contemporaries and I were taught that our presence on the altar was a great privilege rooted in a dispensation that was itself rooted in necessity. Thus, the two steps—the first (from a man in Holy Orders to an indulted lay man or boy) and the second (from an indulted server to a chattering mob covered hastily with the intellectually desperate fig leaf of the "priesthood of the laity")—are scarcely comparable in height!


    My recollection of the Latin mass is the priest doesn't say the responses the servers say.
    And the people sing the creed at a sung mass. Does that take away from the priest?

    At a Traditional Latin mass celebrated by an unaccompanied priest, he does indeed make all the responses. As for a sung mass, the theological parallels between the choir and the server have been almost entirely forgotten (or perhaps willfully expunged), even by Trads. Before the twentieth century, those who sang in any liturgical setting were expected either to be in orders (tenors, basses) or to have the potential to be in orders (boy sopranos and altos). As with servers, here too the presence of laymen was a consequence of dispensation or indult—although admittedly of great antiquity, as at least in England and France there were, to my knowledge, large lay cathedral choirs as long ago as the fifteenth century and perhaps much earlier.

    Still, whatever the practice and however long its existence, the central point that has been either forgotten or memory-holed should be rescued from oblivion: in Traditional Catholic liturgical theology, choirs, like servers, assist materially in the celebration of Mass and thus are normatively expected to be in orders. The "assistance" that the congregation is said to offer at Mass is precisely that: something that may be compared with what is done by men in orders only in the very limited special-use sense that the quotation marks signal.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #69 on: December 02, 2020, 04:59:10 PM »
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    It was archeological because they went back to manuscripts and had to determine what was "authentic" chant and what was not.

    Ok, they did research.  The use of "archeological" is a misnomer because it implies that the authentic chant was hidden and unused.  The proper explanation is they researched to see which chant was Traditional vs quasi-Traditional vs new, because Chant was in high use from the 500s through the Middle Ages, so there was normal, human creativity and development involved.  At the time, such novelty was allowed, if it was in the spirit of antiquity/Tradition (i.e. a new take on an old tune) but St Pius V put a stop to creativity/novelty with Quo Primum in 1571.

    Quote
    So all of the decisions from the SCR are indults because they're not included in the missals?
    What is SCR?
    .

    Quote
    Would you classify Pius X's reform of the Divine Office as not ultra vires, then?

    Of course not.  He didn't change anything essential.  He made a revision to Pope Leo XIII's breviary.

    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #70 on: December 02, 2020, 05:09:43 PM »
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  • Ok, they did research.  The use of "archeological" is a misnomer because it implies that the authentic chant was hidden and unused.  The proper explanation is they researched to see which chant was Traditional vs quasi-Traditional vs new, because Chant was in high use from the 500s through the Middle Ages, so there was normal, human creativity and development involved.  At the time, such novelty was allowed, if it was in the spirit of antiquity/Tradition (i.e. a new take on an old tune) but St Pius V put a stop to creativity/novelty with Quo Primum in 1571.
    What is SCR?
    .

    Of course not.  He didn't change anything essential.  He made a revision to Pope Leo XIII's breviary.
    SCR = Sacred Congregation of Rites.
    What is essential to the breviary if not the entire order of the psalms?


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #71 on: December 02, 2020, 05:18:26 PM »
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    So all of the decisions from the SCR are indults because they're not included in the missals?

    Which SCR decisions contradict the 1955/1962 missal, and when were they decided?
    .
    The SCR does not outrank the pope, so the 1962 missal wins.
    .

    Quote
    What is essential to the breviary if not the entire order of the psalms?

    The breviary is not an essential truth of the faith, but a tangential aspect of the liturgy.  Pope St Pius X basically changed the order of psalms due to time constraints on the modern lifestyle; he didn't delete or add any.

    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #72 on: December 02, 2020, 05:25:46 PM »
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  • Which SCR decisions contradict the 1955/1962 missal, and when were they decided?
    .

    The breviary is not an essential truth of the faith, but a tangential aspect of the liturgy.  Pope St Pius X basically changed the order of psalms due to time constraints on the modern lifestyle; he didn't delete or add any.
    The claim was that the instruction De musica sacra (1958) was an "indult" and therefore not applicable to the 1962 missal.
    As to Pius X's divine office, he did more than re-arrange the psalms. Whereas the traditional Roman Office recited entire psalms except in the case of Prime, I believe, Pius X replaced entire psalms with fragments of psalms. In fact, his revisions made previous breviaries unusable. In the  traditional Roman Office, the little hours of Terce, Sext, None, and Compline were the same psalms every day. In Pius X's Office there are different psalms (or fragments of psalms) for each of those hours for each day of the week. Antiphons were also needlessly changed.
    Pius X also infamously removed psalms 148–50 from being recited at the end of Lauds every day, a practice which is believed to have gone back to Our Lord's time. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #73 on: December 02, 2020, 05:41:04 PM »
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    The claim was that the instruction De musica sacra (1958) was an "indult" and therefore not applicable to the 1962 missal.

    No, the 1962 missal would override/delete the 58 instruction.  Pope John XXIII specifically said that the 1957 Holy Week liturgy was included in his 1962 missal.  He did not mention the 1958 music, so it's no longer applicable.
    .

    Quote
    As to Pius X's divine office, he did more than re-arrange the psalms. Whereas the traditional Roman Office recited entire psalms except in the case of Prime, I believe, Pius X replaced entire psalms with fragments of psalms. In fact, his revisions made previous breviaries unusable. In the  traditional Roman Office, the little hours of Terce, Sext, None, and Compline were the same psalms every day. In Pius X's Office there are different psalms (or fragments of psalms) for each of those hours for each day of the week. Antiphons were also needlessly changed.
    Pius X also infamously removed psalms 148–50 from being recited at the end of Lauds every day, a practice which is believed to have gone back to Our Lord's time.
    The breviary is not as essential for the Church as is the Mass or Scripture.  We must give the pope (especially a saint...Pope Pius X) the benefit of the doubt, that he had his administration do adequate research to make changes necessary and consistent with Tradition.  We can all question him as much as we want, but the fact remains that the breviary is a secondary aspect of the Faith; it's not primarily related to doctrine/theology.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #74 on: December 02, 2020, 05:48:46 PM »
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    I believe, Pius X replaced entire psalms with fragments of psalms. In fact, his revisions made previous breviaries unusable.
    Yeah, he specifically forbid any previous breviaries from being used.  Secondly, the whole purpose of his changes were to speed up the daily reading requirement, due to increased time demands on clerics.  So, yes, the fragments of psalms were the whole point.
    .

    Quote
    In the  traditional Roman Office, the little hours of Terce, Sext, None, and Compline were the same psalms every day. In Pius X's Office there are different psalms (or fragments of psalms) for each of those hours for each day of the week. Antiphons were also needlessly changed.
    You are needlessly criticizing Pope St Pius X's changes, without understanding his motives.  That's wrong.
    .

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    Pius X also infamously removed psalms 148–50 from being recited at the end of Lauds every day, a practice which is believed to have gone back to Our Lord's time.
    The breviary isn't essential to the Faith.  Criticizing a saint over trivial matters is wrong.