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Author Topic: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?  (Read 6633 times)

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Offline Stanley N

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Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2020, 03:46:24 PM »
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  • LT's point is valid, he just didn't explain the nitty gritty details of how the modernists lied.

    You, Pax, recognize that "custom" can include a range of practices, some of which are easily changed and some of which are not.

    LT's understanding does not appear so nuanced, and so these details matter.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #46 on: December 01, 2020, 03:53:44 PM »
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  • Quote
    You, Pax, recognize that "custom" can include a range of practices, some of which are easily changed and some of which are not.

    Can you give examples?  Ideally, customs shouldn't exist, only separate, approved Liturgies.  If 2 countries are both in the Latin Church (i.e. England/Spain), there should be NO local customs because they should both use the same, Latin Rite.  That was the whole purpose of Quo Primum.  When local customs crept back in, starting in the 1900s, this was only the slow rise of Modernism and a precursor to V2.  It's not good and it's not pleasing to God.


    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #47 on: December 01, 2020, 04:03:35 PM »
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  • Can you give examples?  
    For easily changed "customs" I had in mind things like when and how the bells are rung at the Latin mass.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #48 on: December 01, 2020, 04:17:45 PM »
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  • What does that have to do with a Dialogue Mass, which isn't a custom but a novelty?  The customs you speak of are non-essential, minor changes.  A Dialogue Mass is not a minor change; it's a borderline substantial change in the liturgical/doctrinal understanding of what a mass is and the priest's role.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #49 on: December 01, 2020, 07:58:04 PM »
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  • You've got me intrigued, Pax. How is it a substantial change to the theology of the mass to say responses with the servers, or to recite something that the people sing at a sing mass?



    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #50 on: December 01, 2020, 08:08:10 PM »
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  • Quote
    How is it a substantial change to the theology of the mass to say responses with the servers, or to recite something that the people sing at a sing mass?

    I said it's borderline, because the priest says the mass, not the faithful.  Even the servers (under normal conditions) are supposed to be clerics/seminarians.  It's only because there's not enough religious that the laity can serve, and wear the surplus, which is clerical attire.  The idea that the faithful can/should pray the mass out loud waters down the priest's role and it is a shift towards Luther's protestant, heretical ideas that 1) the priesthood is unnecessary, 2) mass isn't a sacrifice, and 3) mass is just a meal, celebrated "as a community".  You can see all these heresies directly/indirectly in the new mass.
    .
    In a properly, fully functioning church, both the servers and choir are all made up of religious clerics, because to serve and sing the propers of the mass is part of the liturgy, which only religious can officiate/lead.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #51 on: December 01, 2020, 08:17:15 PM »
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  • I said it's borderline, because the priest says the mass, not the faithful.
    But that's the same either way.
    My recollection of the Latin mass is the priest doesn't say the responses the servers say.
    And the people sing the creed at a sung mass. Does that take away from the priest?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #52 on: December 01, 2020, 08:26:32 PM »
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  • Quote
    My recollection of the Latin mass is the priest doesn't say the responses the servers say.
    And the people sing the creed at a sung mass. Does that take away from the priest?

    Did you read my whole response?  The servers/choir are filled by the laity ONLY out of necessity.  Thus, the laity are (spiritually speaking) filling the role of the church, when they serve/sing.  Those laity who are in the pews are simple laity and have NO role in the mass.  Liturgically and theologically, they need to be silent.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #53 on: December 01, 2020, 08:31:34 PM »
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  • Did you read my whole response?  The servers/choir are filled by the laity ONLY out of necessity.  Thus, the laity are (spiritually speaking) filling the role of the church, when they serve/sing.  Those laity who are in the pews are simple laity and have NO role in the mass.  Liturgically and theologically, they need to be silent.
    Very good. Perfectly said Pax Vobis. 

    Excerpt from: https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f078_Dialogue_6.htm  Dialogue Mass - VI - Participation, Vocalization & Vulgarization

    "The fact that some of the priest’s prayers require a response does not indicate a verbal role for the laity. Of course, members of the congregation may follow the responses in their missals. But these prayers are meant to be alternated between the priest and the ministers at the altar – or, in the case of a sung Mass, the choir, which likewise exercise a clerical role, as Pope Pius X had explained.

    Thus, no role was envisaged for the congregation to sing or speak during the Mass. Even the altar boys perform their tasks only by indult and are attired in choir dress as a sign that they are substituting, out of necessity, for clerics in the sanctuary, not for the laity in the pews."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #54 on: December 01, 2020, 08:43:33 PM »
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  • All the more reason that if the French/Europeans are pushing a Dialogue Mass, they should be ashamed, because it's never been part of their historical catholicity to have the laity involved so much.  While in America, being we've never been a Catholic country, and it wasn't until the 1900s that we transitioned from needing missionary/foreign priests to having seminaries, monasteries and convents.  Thus, it's more common for America to have the laity involved in serving/choir (and even then, the Dialogue Mass was never normal pre-1960s), while for the French/Europeans, a Dialogue Mass is a big time novelty.

    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #55 on: December 01, 2020, 09:01:03 PM »
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  • If you want to define centuries-old, Apostolic-origin rites as "local customs", then you're correct.  But under the common understanding of "local custom", the Ambrosian, Byzantine (etc) rites were older than 200+ years at the time of 1571, so they were allowed to continue; they aren't local customs but true liturgies.  The main reason being they were Apostolic/Church Father origin.  All of the various local customs were gone after 1571, as they should've been.

    I assume you're speaking of the Gallican rite, which is centuries and centuries old.  You can't compare this rite to the many, many variations which existed in 1571.

    The point is, the Dialogue mass is not Traditional, nor Apostolic.  The Gallican rite can trace its history back to the early Church.  The Dialogue mass is a novelty; you can't "restore" something new.
    What do you mean by "local customs"? Is the practice of singing the Latin Mass in Greek at the Abbey of St Denis, as docuмented here, a "local custom"?
    I am not speaking of the Gallican rite but rather of the various neo-Gallican usages. While some of the uses in France at the time were of medieval origin, many, such as the Use of Paris, were in fact neo-Gallican, creations of the post-Tridentine period, which in fact mirrored both Pius X's reform of the Divine Office and the liturgical reforms of the mid-twentieth century in that non-Scriptural texts were replaced with Scriptural ones and new breviaries were made that were more "logical" and "ordered" (For example, the arrangement of the Pius X psalter vs the traditional Roman is very similar to some neo-Gallican breviaries). Of course, the biggest criticism, though not true of all, of the neo-Gallican rites was alleged Jansenist tendencies.


    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #56 on: December 01, 2020, 09:02:43 PM »
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  • I can understand the laity (sheep)  just going along, that is why we are where we are today, but my question is directed to those who promote the mass like the ElAusente and anyone else who promotes it and fights for it. Why do they want to respond aloud like the altar server and the priest? In the case of a priest, why do they want the congregation to respond aloud like altar servers?
    I do not promote nor do I care for the dialogue Mass. When I am present at it, I do not say the responses.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #57 on: December 02, 2020, 06:44:58 AM »
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  • I do not promote nor do I care for the dialogue Mass. When I am present at it, I do not say the responses.
    What are you doing then, playing the Devil's Advocate?

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #58 on: December 02, 2020, 07:24:58 AM »
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  • This quote is was previously quoted on this CI thread, it is excerpted from an article on Fr. Z's Blog https://wdtprs.com/2015/03/ask-father-extraordinary-form-dialogue-masses/

    Quote
    First, let’s review.  In a nutshell here are the degrees permitted.
    The parts that could be said or sung by the congregation were of two kinds: the parts to be sung at High Mass (Pontifical, Solemn, Sung), and the parts which are responses of the ministers or the server at Low Mass.  The 1958 docuмent Musica sacra divides dialogue Masses into four degrees of outward, vocal expression.  In a nutshell,

    This below is taken directly from the 1958 docuмent Musica sacra itself: De musica sacra et sacra liturgia - Instruction on Sacred Music and Sacred Liturgy (adoremus.org)


    Quote
    At Low Mass
    c. Participation of the faithful in low Mass.
    28. Care must be taken that the faithful assist at low Mass, too, “not as strangers or mute spectators” (Divini cultus, Dec. 20, 1928: AAS 21 [1929] 40), but as exercising that kind of participation demanded by so great, and fruitful a mystery.
    29. The first way the faithful can participate in the low Mass is for each one, on his own initiative, to pay devout attention to the more important parts of the Mass (interior participation), or by following the approved customs in various localities (exterior participation).
    Those who use a small missal, suitable to their own understanding, and pray with priest in the very words of the Church, are worthy of special praise. But all are not equally capable of correctly understanding the rites, and liturgical formulas; nor does everyone possess the same spiritual needs; nor do these needs remain constant in the same individual. Therefore, these people may find a more suitable or easier method of participation in the Mass when “they meditate devoutly on the mysteries of Jesus Christ, or perform other devotional exercises, and offer prayers which, though different in form from those of the sacred rites, are in essential harmony with them” (Mediator Dei, AAS 39 [1947] 560-561).
    In this regard, it must be noted that if any local custom of playing the organ during low Mass might interfere with the participation of the faithful, either by common prayer or song, the custom is to be abolished. This applies not only to the organ, but also to the harmonium or any other musical instrument which is played without interruption. Therefore, in such Masses, there should be no instrumental music at the following times:
    a. After the priest reaches the altar until the Offertory;
    b. From the first versicles before the Preface until the Sanctus inclusive;
    c. From the Consecration until the Pater Noster, where the custom obtains;
    d. From the Pater Noster to the Agnus Dei inclusive; at the Confiteor before the Communion of the faithful ; while the Postcommunion prayer is being said, and during the Blessing at the end of the Mass.
    This docuмent  Musica sacra looks like something out of Vatican II, they tell you the Low mass is a silent mass with interior participation and no noise is allowed ( no organ) to interfere with the silent internal participation of the faithful. Then they tell the people that the better and "more perfect" way of participation is by aloud responses. This is a totally contradictory docuмent. The organ interferes with internal participation but people speaking aloud does not?  This is typical Vatican II speak.

    I've always said that the punishment of Vatican II is that it opens the door for Catholics (clergy and laity) to do whatever they want, to interpret the docuмent according to tradition and ignore the modernist interpretations, or to do what they want and use the modernist interpretation to justify themselves.  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #59 on: December 02, 2020, 08:52:45 AM »
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    What do you mean by "local customs"?

    Speaking of the Latin Rite, for clarity...A local custom would be any minor liturgical practice which does not have its roots in Quo Primum/1962 Missal (i.e. not specifically approved by Rome for the whole Latin Church) and which was born from the following situations:
    .
    a.  The Bishop approved the custom, after receiving permission/indult from Rome, for reasons specific to the religious organization, city, region or country.
    .
    b.  The custom developed from lack of discipline, misinterpretation of rubrics, human error, and became a habit over time.
    .
    c.  The custom has in its roots the liberalism/modernization/experimentation of the pre-V2 era, which in America started in the 50s but in Europe started way earlier, even in the 30s.  Such customs are neither permitted, nor were they human errors, but were evil intentioned ways to attack the liturgy and condition the people to accept the planned-for new mass.
    .
    If one made a list of all these customs, i'd wager a large bet that most of them fall into the category of "c".  Thus, if a truly orthodox pope were elected, he would need to return the entire Latin Church to the 1962 missal (or the 1955) and create uniformity again.