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Author Topic: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?  (Read 6636 times)

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Offline claudel

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Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2020, 07:56:34 PM »
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  • What parish is doing option 4? At that point, it's the Novus Ordo with window dressing.

    See Reply #13. Review, review, review!

    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #31 on: November 30, 2020, 09:15:58 PM »
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  • Why is Pius X's restoration of Gregorian chant not subject to the same criticism as disregarding the liturgical traditions of local places?


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #32 on: December 01, 2020, 09:17:07 AM »
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  • Why is Pius X's restoration of Gregorian chant not subject to the same criticism as disregarding the liturgical traditions of local places?
    El Ausente in Spanish means the absent one. Poche was a Spanish speaker and he is absent from CI because he was thrown off. The style of the writer is the same as Poche. 

    Fr. Carl Pulvermacher taught us the one can not lie, even to save the world.

    Are you Poche?

    Offline claudel

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #33 on: December 01, 2020, 12:57:08 PM »
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  • El Ausente in Spanish means the absent one. Poche was a Spanish speaker and he is absent from CI because he was thrown off. The style of the writer is the same as Poche. … Are you Poche?

    You might well be correct. Till now I've reflexively believed that it would be out of character for poche to return under an alias. But both here and on the long Fr. Chazal thread, all of El Ausente's comments have been of the weaselly, virtue-signaling sort that were poche's bread and butter. The dots are beginning to form a pattern.

    Well spotted!

    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #34 on: December 01, 2020, 12:58:49 PM »
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  • I don't know who Poche is. El Ausente is a nickname for José Antonio Primo de Rivera, founder of the Falange Española


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #35 on: December 01, 2020, 01:05:02 PM »
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  • Quote
    Why is Pius X's restoration of Gregorian chant not subject to the same criticism as disregarding the liturgical traditions of local places?

    You answered your own question - it was a RESTORATION of past Tradition and he decreed it for the WHOLE church, because we should all be praying as ONE.  The whole reason for St Pius V's Quo Primum in 1571 was to make the liturgy uniform (again), and to stop local customs.  St Pius X was simply re-restoring things.  ...Human nature...things typically devolve into chaos because of lukewarmness and lack of discipline.

    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #36 on: December 01, 2020, 01:15:41 PM »
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  • You answered your own question - it was a RESTORATION of past Tradition and he decreed it for the WHOLE church, because we should all be praying as ONE.  The whole reason for St Pius V's Quo Primum in 1571 was to make the liturgy uniform (again), and to stop local customs.  St Pius X was simply re-restoring things.  ...Human nature...things typically devolve into chaos because of lukewarmness and lack of discipline.
    Actually, Quo primum was not designed to stop local customs. It expressly permits the continuation of local rites of a certain age, and indeed local rites did continue (and still do). In fact as late as the 19th century, in response to Guéranger and others, Pius IX, while admitting that the universal adoption of the Roman rite in France would be good, that it would cause more harm than good. Furthermore, the uniformity of liturgy in the twentieth century would indeed not be a restoration of tradition but decidedly contrary to the centuries of diverse liturgical practice.
    One could defend the Dialogue Mass in the same way, as "a RESTORATION of past Tradition and he decreed it for the WHOLE church." This last part is not true, either. The liturgical reforms of Pius X only applied to the Roman rite and thus not even to the whole of the Latin Church and of course did not affect the various Eastern churches in union with Rome.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #37 on: December 01, 2020, 01:32:20 PM »
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  • Quote
    Actually, Quo primum was not designed to stop local customs. It expressly permits the continuation of local rites of a certain age, and indeed local rites did continue (and still do).
    If you want to define centuries-old, Apostolic-origin rites as "local customs", then you're correct.  But under the common understanding of "local custom", the Ambrosian, Byzantine (etc) rites were older than 200+ years at the time of 1571, so they were allowed to continue; they aren't local customs but true liturgies.  The main reason being they were Apostolic/Church Father origin.  All of the various local customs were gone after 1571, as they should've been.
    .

    Quote
    In fact as late as the 19th century, in response to Guéranger and others, Pius IX, while admitting that the universal adoption of the Roman rite in France would be good, that it would cause more harm than good. Furthermore, the uniformity of liturgy in the twentieth century would indeed not be a restoration of tradition but decidedly contrary to the centuries of diverse liturgical practice.

    I assume you're speaking of the Gallican rite, which is centuries and centuries old.  You can't compare this rite to the many, many variations which existed in 1571.
    .

    Quote
    One could defend the Dialogue Mass in the same way, as "a RESTORATION of past Tradition and he decreed it for the WHOLE church." This last part is not true, either. The liturgical reforms of Pius X only applied to the Roman rite and thus not even to the whole of the Latin Church and of course did not affect the various Eastern churches in union with Rome.

    The point is, the Dialogue mass is not Traditional, nor Apostolic.  The Gallican rite can trace its history back to the early Church.  The Dialogue mass is a novelty; you can't "restore" something new.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #38 on: December 01, 2020, 02:46:37 PM »
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  • The congregation makes the shorter responses such as the Amen, Deo gratias, Et cuм spiritu tuo along with the servers.

    Same as above but adding all the responses of the servers, including the prayers at the foot of the altar, Second Confiteor where used, etc..

    Same as above adding the Ordinary (e.g. Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, etc.) together with the priest and/or choir.

    Same as above adding even the Propers (Introit, etc.) with the priest and/or choir.”

    https://wdtprs.com/2015/03/ask-father-extraordinary-form-dialogue-masses/
    I am curious to know why a man who avoids the Novus Ordo and calls himself a traditionalist would want/like to respond like the altar server (and priest) in a Low Mass? I know there are some men that go to the Latin Mass because they are attracted its artistic superiority, pretty vestments, "smells and bells" . Is that the reason? Maybe the lovers of the dialogue mass can tell me what it is that attracts them?

    The question is not for women, only for men and I am talking about a Low Mass only for now.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #39 on: December 01, 2020, 03:06:35 PM »
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  • I am curious to know why a man who avoids the Novus Ordo and calls himself a traditionalist would want/like to respond like the altar server (and priest) in a Low Mass? I know there are some men that go to the Latin Mass because they are attracted its artistic superiority, pretty vestments, "smells and bells" . Is that the reason? Maybe the lovers of the dialogue mass can tell me what it is that attracts them?

    The question is not for women, only for men and I am talking about a Low Mass only for now.

    Usually, it is because they are sold a bill of goods, which goes something like this:

    "Well, there's nothing strictly heretical about the dialogue Mass.  And after all, it was approved before Vatican II.  [and here comes the knockout punch:]  And Archbishop Lefebvre never had a problem with it.  So those people who object to the dialogue Mass really don't have a leg to stand on.  They just don't like it."

    This is the main rationale I hear from priests and laity promoting the dialogue Mass.

    Can you spot the errors in it?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #40 on: December 01, 2020, 03:14:53 PM »
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  • Usually, it is because they are sold a bill of goods, which goes something like this:

    "Well, there's nothing strictly heretical about the dialogue Mass.  And after all, it was approved before Vatican II.  [and here comes the knockout punch:]  And Archbishop Lefebvre never had a problem with it.  So those people who object to the dialogue Mass really don't have a leg to stand on.  They just don't like it."

    This is the main rationale I hear from priests and laity promoting the dialogue Mass.

    Can you spot the errors in it?
    I can understand the laity (sheep)  just going along, that is why we are where we are today, but my question is directed to those who promote the mass like the ElAusente and anyone else who promotes it and fights for it. Why do they want to respond aloud like the altar server and the priest? In the case of a priest, why do they want the congregation to respond aloud like altar servers?


    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #41 on: December 01, 2020, 03:16:37 PM »
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  • You answered your own question - it was a RESTORATION of past Tradition ...

    But LT said

    Quote
    Saying that such and such was done 500 years ago in say Jerusalem or Antioch is how the modernists introduced every novelty hoisted upon the faithful in the 20th century.

    So what was done in the past is irrelevant if it is no longer the "custom"?

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #42 on: December 01, 2020, 03:22:13 PM »
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  • But LT said

    So what was done in the past is irrelevant if it is no longer the "custom"?
    I understand now why the writer has a strongly negative reputation score.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #43 on: December 01, 2020, 03:34:38 PM »
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  • So you're unable to explain yourself, LT?

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #44 on: December 01, 2020, 03:36:05 PM »
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    Saying that such and such was done 500 years ago in say Jerusalem or Antioch is how the modernists introduced every novelty hoisted upon the faithful in the 20th century.

    LT's point is valid, he just didn't explain the nitty gritty details of how the modernists lied.  They DID say (falsely) that the new mass was from "ancient texts...just recently discovered".  In other words, the new mass is "traditional" but it's the first time in history that these "traditions" have been used.  Total con artists.
    .
    Tradition is based on what is "handed down", which includes what has "always been done".  Even if a prayer/rubric is old/ancient, if it wasn't commonly used or practiced, then it's not approved by Tradition.