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Author Topic: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?  (Read 6559 times)

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Offline ElAusente

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Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2020, 03:32:32 PM »
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  • Saying the propers is foreseen by Pius XII's permission of the dialogue Mass.

    Offline claudel

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #16 on: November 30, 2020, 03:39:37 PM »
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  • Saying the propers is foreseen by Pius XII's permission of the dialogue Mass.

    Please provide docuмentation for this assertion of yours. Also, explain why no one else seems to have drawn the conclusion you do.


    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #17 on: November 30, 2020, 03:42:23 PM »
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  • Please provide docuмentation for this assertion of yours. Also, explain why no one else seems to have drawn the conclusion you do.
    "A final method of participation, and the most perfect form, is for the congregation to make the liturgical responses to the prayers of the priest, thus holding a sort of dialogue with him, and reciting aloud the parts which properly belong to them.
    There are four degrees or stages of this participation:
    a) First, the congregation may make the easier liturgical responses to the prayers of the priest: Amen; Et cuм spiritu tuo; Deo gratias; Gloria tibi Domine; Laus tibi, Christe; Habemus ad Dominum; Dignum et justum est; Sed libera nos a malo;
    b) Secondly, the congregation may also say prayers, which, according to the rubrics, are said by the server, including the Confiteor, and the triple Domine non sum dignus before the faithful receive Holy Communion;
    c) Thirdly, the congregation may say aloud with the celebrant parts of the Ordinary of the Mass: Gloria in excelsis Deo; Credo; Sanctus-Benedictus; Agnus Dei;
    d) Fourthly, the congregation may also recite with the priest parts of the Proper of the Mass: Introit, Gradual, Offertory, Communion. Only more advanced groups who have been well trained will be able to participate with becoming dignity in this manner.
    32. Since the Pater Noster is a fitting, and ancient prayer of preparation for Communion, the entire congregation may recite this prayer in unison with the priest in low Masses; the Amen at the end is to be said by all. This is to be done only in Latin, never in the vernacular."
    https://adoremus.org/1958/09/instruction-on-sacred-music/

    Offline Matto

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #18 on: November 30, 2020, 03:43:36 PM »
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  • Are you thinking of Father Leonard Villa, Matto? He was formerly pastor of Holy Innocents and is now at a parish in Yonkers, Saint Paul the Apostle.
    No, I have never been to his Mass which seems unique. I went to St. Agnes a few times over a decade ago, and I remember there being a dialogue Mass (I think as it was so long ago). I don't know the name of the priests who were there. They tell me that St. Agnes no longer has the traditional Mass, but now they have the Novus Ordo in Latin. The rumor is that it is now run by Opus Dei and they hate the traditional Mass. Don't know if that is true, but that is what people are saying. And the other Indult I have been to is Holy Innocents with Fr. Miara as pastor which was not a dialogue Mass. The independent chapel is Our Lady of La Salette in Bayside and they had a dialogue Mass also.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #19 on: November 30, 2020, 03:44:59 PM »
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  • There are actually 3 approved variants of the dialogue/conversation Mass.

    We need variety, man!

    It set the table for the total destruction of liturgical unity in the Roman rite in what would revolve into the Novus Ordo.

    Decent Wiki article:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialogue_Mass

    Or 4 approved varieties:

    “The 1958 docuмent Musica sacra divides dialogue Masses into four degrees of outward, vocal expression.  In a nutshell,

    The congregation makes the shorter responses such as the Amen, Deo gratias, Et cuм spiritu tuo along with the servers.

    Same as above but adding all the responses of the servers, including the prayers at the foot of the altar, Second Confiteor where used, etc..

    Same as above adding the Ordinary (e.g. Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, etc.) together with the priest and/or choir.

    Same as above adding even the Propers (Introit, etc.) with the priest and/or choir.”

    https://wdtprs.com/2015/03/ask-father-extraordinary-form-dialogue-masses/
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline claudel

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #20 on: November 30, 2020, 03:54:25 PM »
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  • There are actually 3 approved variants of the dialogue/conversation Mass.

    We need variety, man!

    It set the table for the total destruction of liturgical unity in the Roman rite in what would revolve into the Novus Ordo.

    Decent Wiki article:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialogue_Mass

    Thanks for this link.

    I think that the Wikipedia article was produced by Winston Smith's colleagues in Oceania's Ministry of Truth. For instance, I know for a fact that there was no precedent anywhere in the Western Church for either server or congregational participation in the second Domine Non Sum Dignus prior to De musica sacra et sacra liturgia (1958), credited to Pius XII (then almost entirely senile) but actually totally written by Bugnini. Note, too, that even the powers that be at Wikipedia admit at the outset that the article cites no sources. I wonder why that should be …

    Offline claudel

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #21 on: November 30, 2020, 03:58:50 PM »
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  • No, I have never been to his Mass which seems unique. I went to St. Agnes a few times over a decade ago, and I remember there being a dialogue Mass (I think as it was so long ago). I don't know the name of the priests who were there. They tell me that St. Agnes no longer has the traditional Mass, but now they have the Novus Ordo in Latin. The rumor is that it is now run by Opus Dei and they hate the traditional Mass. Don't know if that is true, but that is what people are saying. And the other Indult I have been to is Holy Innocents with Fr. Miara as pastor which was not a dialogue Mass. The independent chapel is Our Lady of La Salette in Bayside and they had a dialogue Mass also.

    Father Miara is a very fine man, perhaps even a saintly man. He is completely conscious of the rot within newChurch and is doing what he can to combat it.

    Offline claudel

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #22 on: November 30, 2020, 04:05:45 PM »
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  • Or 4 approved varieties:

    “The 1958 docuмent Musica sacra divides dialogue Masses into four degrees of outward, vocal expression.  In a nutshell,

    The congregation makes the shorter responses such as the Amen, Deo gratias, Et cuм spiritu tuo along with the servers.

    Same as above but adding all the responses of the servers, including the prayers at the foot of the altar, Second Confiteor where used, etc..

    Same as above adding the Ordinary (e.g. Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, etc.) together with the priest and/or choir.

    Same as above adding even the Propers (Introit, etc.) with the priest and/or choir.”

    https://wdtprs.com/2015/03/ask-father-extraordinary-form-dialogue-masses/

    Again, thank you—and as regards De musica sacra, just so. The fact remains that Father Villa is the only priest I have ever encountered who treats the last option as something other than a Bugniniesque obscenity best left to the celebration of the Novus Ordo party-time excuse for the mass. Wikipedia's implication that congregational yakking during the Proper antedated 1958 is either stupid or dishonest. Neither adjective seems out of place, of course, when Wikipedia is being discussed.


    Offline claudel

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #23 on: November 30, 2020, 04:08:25 PM »
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  • "A final method of participation, and the most perfect form, is for the congregation to make the liturgical responses to the prayers of the priest, thus holding a sort of dialogue with him, and reciting aloud the parts which properly belong to them.
    There are four degrees or stages of this participation:
    a) First, the congregation may make the easier liturgical responses to the prayers of the priest: Amen; Et cuм spiritu tuo; Deo gratias; Gloria tibi Domine; Laus tibi, Christe; Habemus ad Dominum; Dignum et justum est; Sed libera nos a malo;
    b) Secondly, the congregation may also say prayers, which, according to the rubrics, are said by the server, including the Confiteor, and the triple Domine non sum dignus before the faithful receive Holy Communion;
    c) Thirdly, the congregation may say aloud with the celebrant parts of the Ordinary of the Mass: Gloria in excelsis Deo; Credo; Sanctus-Benedictus; Agnus Dei;
    d) Fourthly, the congregation may also recite with the priest parts of the Proper of the Mass: Introit, Gradual, Offertory, Communion. Only more advanced groups who have been well trained will be able to participate with becoming dignity in this manner.
    32. Since the Pater Noster is a fitting, and ancient prayer of preparation for Communion, the entire congregation may recite this prayer in unison with the priest in low Masses; the Amen at the end is to be said by all. This is to be done only in Latin, never in the vernacular."
    https://adoremus.org/1958/09/instruction-on-sacred-music/

    This all stems from De musica sacra, a docuмent written in toto by Bugnini. There is nothing here remotely congruent with Tradition. You might just as well quote Satan directly.

    Offline ElAusente

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #24 on: November 30, 2020, 04:10:12 PM »
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  • I never claimed it was congruent with tradition. I merely claimed, as the docuмent shows, that permission was granted for the faithful to say the propers with the priest.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #25 on: November 30, 2020, 04:13:13 PM »
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  • Again, thank you—and as regards De musica sacra, just so. The fact remains that Father Villa is the only priest I have ever encountered who treats the last option as something other than a Bugniniesque obscenity best left to the celebration of the Novus Ordo party-time excuse for the mass. Wikipedia's implication that congregational yakking during the Proper antedated 1958 is either stupid or dishonest. Neither adjective seems out of place, of course, when Wikipedia is being discussed.
    I’ve never seen the 4th option done either.  It’s like one step short of having the faithful concelebrate.
    I can’t stand the dialogue Mass in any form, and refuse to attend one.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline claudel

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #26 on: November 30, 2020, 04:22:53 PM »
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  • I never claimed it was congruent with tradition. I merely claimed, as the docuмent shows, that permission was granted for the faithful to say the propers with the priest.

    True Catholics have the right to expect that their priestly shepherds, especially those who label themselves Traditionalists, won't be drawing water from a tainted well and offering it to them as refreshment for their souls. Nor should we or they grant tainted docuмents, especially those with patently revolutionary intent, the same status, whether in law or conversation, that we grant docuмents of unquestioned authenticity and orthodoxy.

    Offline claudel

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #27 on: November 30, 2020, 04:33:18 PM »
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  • I can’t stand the dialogue Mass in any form, and refuse to attend one.

    I have as little use for it as you do, Sean, as I have said here for years. Unfortunately, there have been many occasions when I have attended such a Mass because my only other option was to stay at home. I do not criticize anyone who, in a similar situation, makes the contrary choice, but I myself am uncomfortable with staying at home except as a last resort, especially as I must frequently miss Sunday Mass because of ill health.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #28 on: November 30, 2020, 04:51:33 PM »
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  • I have as little use for it as you do, Sean, as I have said here for years. Unfortunately, there have been many occasions when I have attended such a Mass because my only other option was to stay at home. I do not criticize anyone who, in a similar situation, makes the contrary choice, but I myself am uncomfortable with staying at home except as a last resort, especially as I must frequently miss Sunday Mass because of ill health.
    Agree completely 
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Minnesota

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    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #29 on: November 30, 2020, 07:13:45 PM »
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  • What parish is doing option 4? At that point, it's the Novus Ordo with window dressing.
    Christ is Risen! He is risen indeed