Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 8

Author Topic: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?  (Read 2985 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline AgnusDei

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 9
  • Reputation: +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
« on: November 25, 2020, 09:22:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • SSPX: Yes.
    Indult: No.
    CMRI: ???
    SSPV: ???
    Indp.: varies
    Logged

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 3481
    • Reputation: +2007/-447
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #1 on: November 25, 2020, 09:43:56 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • CMRI does not do the dialog Mass.
    Logged

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3327/-1937
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #2 on: November 25, 2020, 09:50:34 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: AgnusDei on November 25, 2020, 09:22:37 PM
    SSPX: Yes.
    Indult: No.
    CMRI: ???
    SSPV: ???
    Indp.: varies
    You would need to define what a Dialogue mass entails in detail, as Americans do not know what it is. Also I assume you are talking only of the USA. As I understand it, a dialogue mass is a substitute for the low mass, and the congregation makes aloud all the same responses as the altar server. I believe they also stand up during the the Sanctus. There is more to it, but since it has never been the custom in the USA, any priest can invent his own thing and call it a Dialogue Mass. That is why we are only required to know our own customs, and foreign priests were always expected to honor the local custom. My French priests do not do the "dialogue mass" for adults, only for the school children and like I said, they could just be inventing their own thing for all we know. I do not believe the SSPX does a dialogue mass for adults in the USA.
    Logged
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline AgnusDei

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 9
    • Reputation: +2/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #3 on: November 26, 2020, 01:20:22 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Yeti on November 25, 2020, 09:43:56 PM
    CMRI does not do the dialog Mass.

    Some say otherwise. 


    Quote from: RonCal26 on November 07, 2013, 11:44:50 PM
    When I attended the Sunday Liturgy at the CMRI chapel in Santa Clarita, I remembered the faithful enunciating the responses with the altar boys.  This was a sedevacantist chapel. 

    Quote from: Neil Obstat on November 12, 2013, 09:30:33 AM
    Fr. Dominic Radecki, CMRI (priest stationed at Queen of Angels 
    Catholic Church in Newhall or 'Santa Clarita'*) does encourage the 
    women to respond with the altar boys.  He says this is what Pius 
    XII taught and since he was a valid Pope, he could do no wrong, 
    basically.  


    Logged

    Offline SperaInDeo

    • Supporter
    • **
    • Posts: 343
    • Reputation: +269/-73
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #4 on: November 26, 2020, 12:59:20 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: AgnusDei on November 25, 2020, 09:22:37 PM
    SSPX: Yes.
    Indult: No.
    CMRI: ???
    SSPV: ???
    Indp.: varies
    I can speak from experience that the Indult will do it.
    I don't think it is commonplace for FSSP and the like, but the Priests who offer both the Novus Ordo and the Latin Mass play it pretty fast and loose with the rubrics among other shenanigans.
    Logged

    Online moneil

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 618
    • Reputation: +456/-43
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #5 on: November 27, 2020, 01:10:26 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • For some additional data, from my experience ...

    In addition to FSSP parishes in the Archdiocese of Seattle and the Diocese of Boise, I've attended "indult" Masses in the Dioceses of Yakima, Spokane, and Boise.  The diocesan (not FSSP) Masses have been offered by 6 different priests, all of whom offer Mass from the 1962 and 1969 missal.  In ALL of these ONLY the Altar Servers, or also the choir if a High Mass, give the responses.

    As far as any aberrations from the rubrics, some of the diocesan priests do tend to include the third Confiteor, which I believe was discontinued with the 1960 rubrics.  Also, at the High Mass last Sunday the priest led the Leonine Prayers, which are mandated to be said only after a Low Mass in my understanding.
    Logged

    Offline ca246

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 74
    • Reputation: +40/-42
    • Gender: Male
      • Verafide.Org
    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #6 on: November 27, 2020, 09:31:53 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • The SSPX chapel near me explicitly warns against it and it is forbidden on all Sunday Masses, but allowed on weekdays. I have never been to an SSPX or sedevacantist church anywhere in the world where I've heard many people uttering the responses. At Arvillé, they did not have it and in all the CMRI Masses I have gone to, they do not have it. In an FSSP church in the USA and at diocesan ones like the Holy Cross church in Kraków, they very much allowed it when I was there. As annoying as some people's mispronunciations might be, I don't have a problem with it.
    Logged

    Offline Matto

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6882
    • Reputation: +3849/-406
    • Gender: Male
    • Love God and Play, Do Good Work and Pray
    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #7 on: November 27, 2020, 09:36:35 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Indults (I have been to two of the several in New York City): One yes, one no.
    SSPX: No. (Though one of the priests did once suggest that it would be good for the laity to join in the responses, a suggestion that was never taken up by the laity nor enforced by that priest).
    Independent non-sede trad chapel: Yes.
    Logged
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Cryptinox

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1150
    • Reputation: +248/-91
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #8 on: November 28, 2020, 01:55:56 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • I talked to this one 87 year old independent sede Benedictine priest who actually knew Fr. Feeney and he told me he loves the dialogue mas and also loves the 1955 holy week and thinks it is a shame more priest don't offer the dialogue mass and the 1955 holy week.
    Logged

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3327/-1937
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #9 on: November 28, 2020, 10:22:03 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Cryptinox on November 28, 2020, 01:55:56 AM
    I talked to this one 87 year old independent sede Benedictine priest who actually knew Fr. Feeney and he told me he loves the dialogue mas and also loves the 1955 holy week and thinks it is a shame more priest don't offer the dialogue mass and the 1955 holy week.
    See the comment below from another thread about aloud active participation. The comment above is a variant  example of "Saying that such and such was done 500 years ago in say Jerusalem or Antioch, which is how the modernists introduced every novelty hoisted upon the faithful in the 20th century". We are to follow the customs of the country, which reflects the time honored practices of  hundreds of thousands of priests who gave their lives for the faith against the persecutions, tortures, and killings at the hands of  the Indians, the Protestants, Masons, and all the enemies of the Catholic Faith that were encountered in the USA for well over 300 years. One does not abandon the customs of the country for the "likes" of a priest. (moreover, here-say in this case). Abandoning our time honored customs is what got us where we are today.

    Quote from: Last Tradhican on November 26, 2020, 08:38:43 PM
    Regarding aloud active participation see the OP of my thread and my answers to others:  https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/laity-vocal-reponses-are-a-novelty/


    The bottom line is that we follow the customs of our countries. The USA has  a Catholic mass history that goes back 300+ years involving customs from England, Germany, Ireland, Spain, Italy, Poland, France..... I live in the USA and I know my customs as I am sure a Coptic Catholic in Egypt knows his customs. What is done in an Eastern Liturgy is no consequence to me, just as what is done in the USA is of no consequence to a Coptic Catholic in Egypt.

    Saying that such and such was done 500 years ago in say Jerusalem or Antioch is how the modernists introduced every novelty hoisted upon the faithful in the 20th century. Learn your own customs and do not fall for the "inventors" of a better way. The customs of a country reflect the character of its people, and being that the USA is a melting pot of many Catholic countries, I have to think that their customs are the most universal.  

    Aloud active participation is not a custom of the USA.
    Logged
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline ElAusente

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 91
    • Reputation: +17/-19
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #10 on: November 29, 2020, 05:56:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Wouldn't it be more accurate to say loud, active participation was the not custom of the Irish Americans, as the German Americans had their tradition of singing hymns during Mass?
    Logged

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3327/-1937
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #11 on: November 30, 2020, 09:22:18 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: ElAusente on November 29, 2020, 05:56:46 PM
    Wouldn't it be more accurate to say loud, active participation was the not custom of the Irish Americans, as the German Americans had their tradition of singing hymns during Mass?
    Again, the quote above is an example of "Saying that such and such was done 500 years ago in say Jerusalem or Antioch", which is how the modernists introduced every novelty hoisted upon the faithful in the 20th century. Whether the Germans sang hymns or not is something for the Germans to explain to themselves, it has nothing to do with our customs.

    We are to follow the customs of our country, the USA, which reflects the time honored practices of  hundreds of thousands of priests, and the character of  its people that was developed over 300 years+. The Irish priests and the Irish people were a small and late part of the immigrants to the USA, the West was all Spanish, the predominant blood of Americans comes from Germany, not England, then there is the Italian, Polish and all the other immigrations. 

    Keep in mind that the linked article is number 99 of a series on the aloud active participation mass in the Roman Rite. see the OP of  https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/laity-vocal-reponses-are-a-novelty/ . The article is about the entire world not just America, in other words, the customs of France, Germany, Italy, England were the same except for minor local customs, and aloud active participation by the laity in the Roman Rite mass was not a custom anywhere.  If however, someone wants to debate that such and such was done in Timbuktu, I answer again, it has nothing to do with the customs of the USA which is what we are talking about.

    P.S.- prior to Vatican II the worshippers of all the Eastern Catholic rites put together represented 5% of all the Catholics in the world, in other words the Roman Rite worshippers are 95% of the Catholics of the world. 
    Logged
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline ElAusente

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 91
    • Reputation: +17/-19
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #12 on: November 30, 2020, 11:38:06 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
    • Logged

    Offline claudel

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1776
    • Reputation: +1335/-419
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #13 on: November 30, 2020, 03:05:12 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Matto on November 27, 2020, 09:36:35 PM

    Indults (I have been to two of the several in New York City): One yes, one no.

    Are you thinking of Father Leonard Villa, Matto? He was formerly pastor of Holy Innocents and is now at a parish in Yonkers, Saint Paul the Apostle.

    Villa is the strangest example of an indultist I have ever run across. I first heard of him in 2004, when he was the pastor of a different Yonkers parish, Saint Eugene. Then and now, he takes congregational participation in the "extraordinary form" to lengths that exceed even a typical Novus Ordo service. To be specific, the parts of Mass for which he insists on dialogue include, besides the expected Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei, the following: (1) in the Ordinary: the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, the Pater Noster, and the second Domine Non Sum Dignus; (2) in the Proper: the Introit, the Gradual, the Offertory, and the Communion—in other words, all the Proper prayers drawn directly from Scripture except the Epistle and Gospel. In addition, he reads the Epistle in English, not Latin.

    He is the only priest I have ever heard of who has the congregation "participate" during the Proper of the Mass. He is evidently such an egomaniac that his uniqueness in this regard doesn't give him a moment's pause.

    To say that Villa is, in addition, the worst homilist I have ever heard would be unfair—there are, after all, so many really bad ones—but he is surely in the top ten. Also, as is common with people who enjoy singing even though they have no feeling for music and can barely carry a tune, he always calls upon the congregation to sing three, four, or five verses of a postcommunion hymn—invariably a capella, I should add. To call the result "musical diabolism" would be only a slight exaggeration.
    Logged

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15064
    • Reputation: +9980/-3161
    • Gender: Male
    Re: The Dialogue Mass: Who offers it? Who doesn't?
    « Reply #14 on: November 30, 2020, 03:23:38 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • There are actually 3 approved variants of the dialogue/conversation Mass.

    We need variety, man!

    It set the table for the total destruction of liturgical unity in the Roman rite in what would revolve into the Novus Ordo.

    Decent Wiki article:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialogue_Mass
    Logged
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."
    Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 8
    « previous next »