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Author Topic: The Ceasing of the Holy Sacrifice during Antichrist's reign  (Read 495 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Ceasing of the Holy Sacrifice during Antichrist's reign
« Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 09:20:23 PM »
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Agreed. Every time someone makes this claim, I ask where it was defined, and I need a Denzinger citation.

Guess what? I'm still waiting on all the people I ever asked this to! :laugh1:

I've never seen anything even from a theologian, much less something from Denzinger.  if the Papacy doesn't defect due to a vacancy of then why would the episcopacy, which derives its authority anyway from the papacy?  What's said about the Papacy, namely, that the office continue, at least in potency, should apply equally to the episcopal offices.

I used to accept the "ecclesiavacantist" criticism ... until it occurred to me that it was merely assumed, and never proven.  I also found some SVs who cited theologians who said that jurisdiction could continue in the Church even via an AntiPope though "color of title".

Now, I personally find the sedeprivationist position to be the most convincing, for various other reasons ... but this isn't one of them.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Ceasing of the Holy Sacrifice during Antichrist's reign
« Reply #11 on: Today at 05:32:41 AM »
So ... I've never seen it proven that the Church would defect if there are no longer any bishops left with ordinary jurisdiction due to direct papal appointment.  Just as the papacy does not formally defect when it cease to be materially occupied (a different use of that distinction), because it continues on in potency, I don't see why the same cannot be said of ordinary jurisdiction.  Bishops have that potency to hold ordinary jurisdiction by virtue of their Holy Order combined with being Catholic.  So long as that potency remains, it's no different than saying that the Church and the Papacy do not defect when vacant.

During even a "normal" interregnum, it's Christ who formally supplies jurisdiction to the bishops who had been appointed by the deceased pope ... and one could make a case that this mode of jurisdiction is not "ordinary" either, since there's no Pope supplying it.  Of course, Father Lavery CMRI ... rejecting this common understanding among theologians, that Christ, the actual Head of the Church, continues to supply jurisdiction in the absence of a Vicar or, for cases of Sacramental jurisdiction, "the Church" supplies ... rejecting these commonly-held formulae, Father claims that all jurisdiction must come from the Pope, not the Church, nor Christ ... and so, basically, he says that it's the ghost of Pius XII that's continuing to provide jurisdiction.  Of course, the fatal flaw with his theory (among the general absurdity of it), is that ... well, uhm, Pacelli is no longer Pope, since he's dead.  So Pacelli cannot supply anything to anyone, since "nemo dat quod non habet".

The issue regarding Apostolic succession does not involve the pope, and the issue of "potency" does not solve any problems. It involves the Church as the continuing presence of Christ on earth since His Ascension. Christ is King, Prophet and Priest. That is His threefold aspect as Ruler, Truth Teller, and Sanctifier. As long as there is a bishop with real power of jurisidiction in a diocese or area there is Christ's ongoing power of ruling on earth. An ordinary has real power and authority over Catholics in his jurisdiction: do this, don't do that, etc.

Just as the Church would defect and lose Apostolic Succession if she became a liar by teaching falsely  - which is why some argue that the Conciliar Church is not the true Church because the Church is forever indefectible as truth teller - she also would lose Apostolic Succession if she failed to provide the means of redemption in her prescribed sacraments (failure as sanctifier/redeemer) - another reason why some argue the Conciliar Church can't be the true Church . . . In either case, the Church would fail as Prophet (truth teller) or Priest (sanctifier), and thus fail as the continuation of Christ on earth as Prophet and Priest.

So if there is no descendant of the Apostles with authoritative power to rule, there is a failure of the Church continuing the presence of Christ on earth as King/Ruler. This has been discussed in detail in another thread: https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/indefectibility-requires-a-hierarchy-with-the-power-of-jurisidisdiction/msg875216/#msg875216

You can't separate or divide Christ: for Apostolic Succession, His Church must continues His presence on earth as King, Prophet and Priest - all three.

When there is no pope, Apostolic Succession continues with the presence of ordinaries with power to rule (King), bishops and priests preaching the true faith (Prophet), and sacraments that really heal and save (Priest).

This is why the issue of no ordinary with real authority is relevant, just as the Concliar Church preaching falsely in Christ's name is relevant, or not providing true sacraments that heal and redeem is relevant.

Sedevacantism provides an answer regarding Prophet and Priest, but fails in the aspect of King/Ruler. So it comes up with the Cassiacuм thesis. But "potency" does not address real presence of Christ as King/Ruler, a neglected aspect of what indefectibility also requires.

They are all related. A failure in any aspect - King, Prophet, or Priest - is a defection.






Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Ceasing of the Holy Sacrifice during Antichrist's reign
« Reply #12 on: Today at 07:00:00 AM »
DR, no matter how many times you keep saying the same thing ... as if by saying it often enough that makes it true ... your assertion, as poetic as you wish to wax about it, remains unproven.

"Power", Latin "potestas", is nothing other than a habitual potency.  And, if the fact that the habitual potency remains suffices to make it true that St. Peter has always had and always will have perpetual successors, despite there being fairly regular, and sometimes lengthy, interregna, then there's nor reason it can't make it true that the general governing / authority of the Church cannot remain, in potency as well.  And, if it cannot perdure in potency, then it also doesn't work to use that as the explanation for why the papacy hasn't defected.

So, Archbishop Lefebvre contends that the "notes" of the Catholic Church are with Traditional Catholics ... with the notes being those attribute that make the Church knowable as the Church founded by Christ, then in his and the "R&R" perspective, the notes are divided ... where some notes, such as profession of the true faith, oneness, holiness, those reside among Traditional Catholics, but then this other visible attribute, the governing authority, is visibly divided from the rest of the Church, resulting in an essentially divided visible Church.

As for the privationists, where you cite them ... yeah, they too hold that the authority is only there among the bishops in potency, not in act.  So ... not sure why you think they support your case.

Nor can any sedevacantists, such as the neo-Conclavists make the case that the governing authority continues "in act", but among the sedevacantists bishops ... since no teaching authority and no governing authority exists outside the Pope, and they hold that no bishop remains alive today who had been given such authority by the Pope.

That's precisely why we have Father Lavery in total desperation claiming that the "ghost of Pacelli" (my expression) supplies jurisdiction to Bishop Roy, Bishop Pivarunas, etc.  That's absurd on the face of it.

So you're trying to have your cake and eat it to, building a case from the sedeprivationists but then rejecting that authority remains in potency, which is what they hold ... and then blending it together with some R&R concepts and some of the concepts from the neo-Conclavists ... but they really don't mix.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Ceasing of the Holy Sacrifice during Antichrist's reign
« Reply #13 on: Today at 07:07:12 AM »
Of course, the other obvious problem with the "Trad bishops have jurisdiction" question is ... which Trad bishops?  all of them?

Just about any clown can find A +Thuc-line bishop to consecrate him, and so, you see, normally the way this works, is that the Pope, and in the early Church the clergy and faithful, SELECT a bishop (though even there you had the Pope tacitly appointing them).  That's almost essentially to the very notion of "mission".  Who "sent" Bishop Roy?  He went and sought out consecration himself and sent himself.

That whole notion that if I can go get consecrated, now I can claim mission and jurisdiction ... it's just plain ridiculous.  At least a +Pirvarunas was selected / elected by the clergy of the CMRI.  Rest of them?  Not so much.

If I go out there, find an amenable +Thuc bishops, get myself ordained and consecrated, then I too have mission and jurisdiction.  I think I'll go ahead and lay down my stake in the State of Ohio.  Or, maybe the entire Midwest, who knows?  Or maybe split the US in half like +Musey and +Vezelis did.

Many of the neo-Conclavists are talking about applying "common sense" ... and yet appear, ironically to have been left entirely bereft of theirs, not realizing that their NonClave (since they're admant that it's NOT a Conclave ... obsessing about semantics, when everybody knows that that the term is being used loosely), not realizing that their NonClave differs only in degree from the previous absurd efforts that resulted in nothing more than "Yet Another Antpope" ... and the absurdity of the +Musey / +Vezelis situation, both of which have continued to haunt and discredit Traditional Catholics, and sedevacantists in particular.

Offline Twice dyed

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Re: The Ceasing of the Holy Sacrifice during Antichrist's reign
« Reply #14 on: Today at 09:05:34 AM »
I think it was + Altenbach (r.i.p.) who said the last Mass on earth signals the end of time. That there is no reason for the earth to exist without the continual propitiatory sacrifice of Calvary.   
Related:
https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/padre-pio-the-priest-13828

"Every Holy Mass, heard with devotion, produces in our souls marvelous effects, abundant spiritual and material graces which we, ourselves, do not know...It is easier for the earth to exist without the sun than without the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass!" - Padre Pio
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St. Philip and St. James, pray for us.
St. James the Minor was the first bishop of Jerusalem, and governed the Church 30 years! Martyr.