Author Topic: The "Orthodox" permit divorce+remarriage!  (Read 330 times)

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Offline Geremia

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The "Orthodox" permit divorce+remarriage!
« on: September 11, 2017, 11:54:38 AM »
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  • Annulment, according to the Catholic Dictionary by Fr. Hardon, S.J., is an
    Quote
    Official declaration by competent authority that, for lawful reasons, a previous act or contract was invalid and consequently null and void. In ecclesiastical law, annulments mainly apply to marriage contracts over which the Church has the right to determine their validity. (Etym. Latin an-, to + nullus, none; annullare, to annihilate, to annul.)
    Thus, annulment in the Roman Catholic sense is a declaration that there was never a valid marriage.
    The Orthodox permit adultery/bigamy. OrthodoxWiki's "Marriage" article, § "Divorce" says (my comments in [·]):
    Quote
    Orthodoxy regards the marriage bond as indissoluble, and it condemns the breakdown of marriage as a sin and an evil. The [schismatic] Orthodox Church does permit remarriage [i.e., adultery/bigamy] after divorce in some cases, as an exception, a necessary concession to human sin. While condemning sin [but not condemning the sin of adultery!], the [schismatic Orthodox] Church desires to help the sinners and to allow them another chance [to commit adultery!], with an act of oikonomia. When a marriage has ceased to be a reality, the Orthodox Church faces the reality with philanthropia (loving kindness [not very loving or kind to permit sin!]).
    Thus, the Orthodox are not at all orthodox. They think a marriage can cease "to be a reality" by reasons other than the death of a spouse! They thus deny Mark 10:9:
    Quote
    What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
    and Matthew 5:32:
    Quote
    But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication,* maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.
    *"excepting for the cause of porneia", i.e., except when there was never a marriage in the first place, as fornication does not make a marriage
    The Orthodox's view of oikonomia is contrasted with the Catholic Church's position in Remaining in the Truth of Christ: Marriage and Communion in the Catholic Church.
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: The "Orthodox" permit divorce+remarriage!
    « Reply #1 on: September 11, 2017, 12:06:08 PM »
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  • Annulment, according to the Catholic Dictionary by Fr. Hardon, S.J., is anThus, annulment in the Roman Catholic sense is a declaration that there was never a valid marriage.
    The Orthodox permit adultery/bigamy. OrthodoxWiki's "Marriage" article, § "Divorce" says (my comments in [·]):Thus, the Orthodox are not at all orthodox. They think a marriage can cease "to be a reality" by reasons other than the death of a spouse! They thus deny Mark 10:9:and Matthew 5:32:*"excepting for the cause of porneia", i.e., except when there was never a marriage in the first place, as fornication does not make a marriage
    The Orthodox's view of oikonomia is contrasted with the Catholic Church's position in Remaining in the Truth of Christ: Marriage and Communion in the Catholic Church.

    They're schismatics and heretics.

    They jacked a boatload (if you'll pardon the expression) of Catholic "swag" and jumped said boat long ago.

    With all due sir, they're about as relevant as Protestants or any other pack of heretics and schismatics.

    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline sedevacantist3

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    Re: The "Orthodox" permit divorce+remarriage!
    « Reply #2 on: September 11, 2017, 08:52:52 PM »
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  • They're schismatics and heretics.

    They jacked a boatload (if you'll pardon the expression) of Catholic "swag" and jumped said boat long ago.

    With all due sir, they're about as relevant as Protestants or any other pack of heretics and schismatics.
    I'm arguing with some of them about the filioque, eventhough I provide quotes from church fathers that state the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son they are still obstinate in their heresy

    here's the last response they gave
    In short: there is a difference between eternal procession and temporal procession. When Orthodox Fathers state that the Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son," they are speaking about temporal procession, not eternal procession. The Creed is speaking about eternal procession, so "and the Son" is not appropriate in the Creed. The ancient patristic consensus (Rome and all of the East) was to NOT have the Filioque in the Creed. The East remained faithful to that ancient patristic consensus, whereas the West perverted the Catholic consensus and fell away from the Catholic Church. If you do not clearly understand the difference between eternal and temporal procession, then you will misunderstand the entire issue. Please read the following carefully:


    SAINT GREGORY PALAMAS AND THE COUNCIL OF 1351 IN CONSTANTINOPLE (THE "NINTH ECUMENICAL" COUNCIL)
    [The Holy Spirit] proceeds from the Father. He is co-beginningless with the Father and the Son as being outside time, but not without beginning, as Himself also having the Father as root, source, and cause, not as generated, but as proceeding; for He also came forth from the Father before all ages immutably and impassibly, not by generation, but by procession, being indivisible from the Father and the Son, as proceeding from the Father and resting in the Son, having union without confusion and division without division. He is God and is Himself from God, not one thing insofar as He is God, but another insofar as He is the Paraclete; He is the self-subsistent Spirit, proceeding from the Father and sent, that is manifested, through the Son, the cause of all that came into being, since They were perfected in Him; the same equal in honor with both the Father and the Son, without ingenerateness and generation. He was sent from the Son to His own disciples, that is, He was manifested. For how otherwise would He Who is not separated from Him be sent by Him? How otherwise, pray tell, would He come Who is everywhere? Wherefore, He is sent not only from the Son, but also from the Father and through the Son; and He comes from Himself when He is being manifested. For the sending, that is the manifestation, of the Spirit is a common action. He is manifested, not according to essence, for no one has ever either seen or declared the nature of God, but according to the grace, power, and energy that is common to the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. For the hypostasis of each, and whatever belongs to it, is peculiar to each of these. Not only is the super-essential Essence, which is entirely nameless, inexpressible, and incapable of participation, since it is above every name, expression, and participation, common to Them all, but also the grace, the power, the energy, the radiance, the kingdom, and the incorruption, and in general everything according to which God communicates and is united by grace with both holy angels and holy men. Departing from His simplicity neither on account of the distinction and difference of the hypostases, nor on account of the distinction and variety of powers and energies, we thus have one all-powerful God in one Deity [θεότης, theótēs]. For neither from perfect hypostases, could there ever come about any composition, nor could what is potential, because it has power or powers, ever truly be called composite by reason of potentiality itself.

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: The "Orthodox" permit divorce+remarriage!
    « Reply #3 on: September 11, 2017, 11:47:13 PM »
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  • SAINT GREGORY PALAMAS AND THE COUNCIL OF 1351 IN CONSTANTINOPLE (THE "NINTH ECUMENICAL" COUNCIL)
    [The Holy Spirit] proceeds from the Father. He is co-beginningless with the Father and the Son as being outside time, but not without beginning, as Himself also having the Father as root, source, and cause, not as generated, but as proceeding; for He also came forth from the Father before all ages immutably and impassibly, not by generation, but by procession, being indivisible from the Father and the Son, as proceeding from the Father and resting in the Son, having union without confusion and division without division. He is God and is Himself from God, not one thing insofar as He is God, but another insofar as He is the Paraclete; He is the self-subsistent Spirit, proceeding from the Father and sent, that is manifested, through the Son, the cause of all that came into being, since They were perfected in Him; the same equal in honor with both the Father and the Son, without ingenerateness and generation. He was sent from the Son to His own disciples, that is, He was manifested. For how otherwise would He Who is not separated from Him be sent by Him? How otherwise, pray tell, would He come Who is everywhere? Wherefore, He is sent not only from the Son, but also from the Father and through the Son; and He comes from Himself when He is being manifested. For the sending, that is the manifestation, of the Spirit is a common action. He is manifested, not according to essence, for no one has ever either seen or declared the nature of God, but according to the grace, power, and energy that is common to the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. For the hypostasis of each, and whatever belongs to it, is peculiar to each of these. Not only is the super-essential Essence, which is entirely nameless, inexpressible, and incapable of participation, since it is above every name, expression, and participation, common to Them all, but also the grace, the power, the energy, the radiance, the kingdom, and the incorruption, and in general everything according to which God communicates and is united by grace with both holy angels and holy men. Departing from His simplicity neither on account of the distinction and difference of the hypostases, nor on account of the distinction and variety of powers and energies, we thus have one all-powerful God in one Deity [θεότης, theótēs]. For neither from perfect hypostases, could there ever come about any composition, nor could what is potential, because it has power or powers, ever truly be called composite by reason of potentiality itself.
    1. "So what?"
    2. "Cites references pls."
    3. "What does and has the Church, you know, the one that you refuse to have for a mother, say?"

    You see the desert stark differences in methods here?

    "Let's ask a saint! " (Sound familiar? 90% of "Trads", at least when they aren't, e.g., trying to sort the politically mercurial ramblings of a dead titular abp.)
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Dolores

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    Re: The "Orthodox" permit divorce+remarriage!
    « Reply #4 on: September 12, 2017, 08:34:08 AM »
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  • Nothing new here.  The Orthodox have permitted divorce and remarriage for a very long time.  The line that is typically given is that the Orthodox "bless the first marriage, perform the second, tolerate the third, and forbid the fourth."


    Offline sedevacantist3

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    Re: The "Orthodox" permit divorce+remarriage!
    « Reply #5 on: September 12, 2017, 08:19:18 PM »
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  • 1. "So what?"
    2. "Cites references pls."
    3. "What does and has the Church, you know, the one that you refuse to have for a mother, say?"

    You see the desert stark differences in methods here?

    "Let's ask a saint! " (Sound familiar? 90% of "Trads", at least when they aren't, e.g., trying to sort the politically mercurial ramblings of a dead titular abp.)
    Hey DZ ,not sure your response is what i would give if I'm trying to convert someone to the catholic faith..she responded the following when I asked about the temporal procession
    "If you read carefully, you will see that Cyril of Alexandria clearly states, "Since the Holy Spirit when He is in us effects our being conformed to God." This clause definitely refers to the life of the Holy Spirit within us, which is a temporal procession. The Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us (temporal procession) at our Baptism and Holy Chrismation by the power of the Priest in the Holy Sacraments (Holy Mysteries)"
    I have since asked her for quotes from church fathers that speak about the temporal procession vs eternal procession...will keep you posted

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: The "Orthodox" permit divorce+remarriage!
    « Reply #6 on: September 13, 2017, 12:14:34 AM »
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  • Many Orthodox are not so "orthodox" because many are pro  abortion liberals.  
    To live with the Saints in Heaven is all bliss and glory....To live with the saints on Earth is just another story!  (unknown)

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: The "Orthodox" permit divorce+remarriage!
    « Reply #7 on: September 13, 2017, 12:17:05 AM »
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  • Hey DZ ,not sure your response is what i would give if I'm trying to convert someone to the catholic faith..she responded the following when I asked about the temporal procession
    "If you read carefully, you will see that Cyril of Alexandria clearly states, "Since the Holy Spirit when He is in us effects our being conformed to God." This clause definitely refers to the life of the Holy Spirit within us, which is a temporal procession. The Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us (temporal procession) at our Baptism and Holy Chrismation by the power of the Priest in the Holy Sacraments (Holy Mysteries)"
    I have since asked her for quotes from church fathers that speak about the temporal procession vs eternal procession...will keep you posted
    I'm not sure that it is either, I'm just trying to provide rear security with some brainstorms, and will defer questions as you're already engaged.
    I'm not "there" and don't have all the details, nor am I a woman.

    I would think very deeply about any association of the Eternal with the temporal however, as well as consider linguistic accomodation.

    However, I am a convert from something far more obscure; the closer for me was simple accountability when you get right down to it, and this was with severe reservations regarding the Blessed Virgin.
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline DLaurentius

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    Re: The "Orthodox" permit divorce+remarriage!
    « Reply #8 on: September 27, 2017, 07:36:40 PM »
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  • There are many groups within Eastern Orthodoxy with widely differing views. However, most of the prominent ones seem to be permissive of divorce and remarriage.
    "Sed et si ambulavero in valle mortis non timebo malum quoniam tu mecum es virga tua et baculus tuus ipsa consolabuntur me." - Psalmi 22-4

     

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