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Author Topic: Supplied Jurisdiction, Common Error, and Confirmation?  (Read 612 times)

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Offline Cryptinox

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Supplied Jurisdiction, Common Error, and Confirmation?
« on: April 15, 2021, 10:17:20 PM »
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  • Let's say someone was confirmed in the traditional rite by a bishop who was ordained a priest before the new rite came out. Would jurisdiction for the confirmation be supplied under the case of common error? I know that Latin rite priests need faculties in order to validly administer confirmation. Not sure about Eastern rite though since the converted orthodox did not need to be conditionally confirmed.


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Supplied Jurisdiction, Common Error, and Confirmation?
    « Reply #1 on: April 15, 2021, 11:18:38 PM »
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  • I don't understand the question.


    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Supplied Jurisdiction, Common Error, and Confirmation?
    « Reply #2 on: April 16, 2021, 11:20:45 AM »
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  • I don't understand the question.
    Would a valid priest who was invalidly consecrated a bishop be able to validly confirm people due to sincerely believing he has that power and because others are convinced he has it? For a priest in the Latin rite to confirm validly he has to be given faculties just like with confession.

    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: Supplied Jurisdiction, Common Error, and Confirmation?
    « Reply #3 on: April 16, 2021, 11:32:35 AM »
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  • Things that happen in the east are not applicable since they operate under a different canon law. Priests need permission in the West to confer the sacrament normally. (Exception Danger of death etc.)
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Supplied Jurisdiction, Common Error, and Confirmation?
    « Reply #4 on: April 16, 2021, 11:33:31 AM »
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  • Things that happen in the east are not applicable since they operate under a different canon law. Priests need permission in the West to confer the sacrament normally. (Exception Danger of death etc.)
    I am talking about someone who is presumed to be a bishop but is not due to some defect in his consecration but is a valid priest.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Supplied Jurisdiction, Common Error, and Confirmation?
    « Reply #5 on: April 16, 2021, 11:39:35 AM »
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  • It's possible, but doubtful.  Given the fact that under SOME laws, priests can confirm, even in the Latin Rite when the Bishops delegates the priest, one could argue given this state of emergency in the Church, that jurisdiction would be supplied.  But that's speculative and doubtful.

    How doubtful is the episcopal consecration?  By whom did he get consecrated.

    Offline In Principio

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    Re: Supplied Jurisdiction, Common Error, and Confirmation?
    « Reply #6 on: April 16, 2021, 01:55:13 PM »
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  • The validity of confirmation does not depend on jurisdiction.  The special powers that the pope has sometimes granted to priests, empowering them to confirm, is not of the power of jurisdiction, but is in relation to the power of order.  It is an activation of a latent power priests possess by virtue of their power of orders.  Without this "activation", priests can not validly confirm.  This is not a question of supplied jurisdiction, and it would seem that any attempted confirmation by a traditional priest these days would be doubtful, at best.


    The Sacraments: A Dogmatic Treatise.  1917.
    Joseph Pohle, Ph.D., D.D.
    Pp. 310-313:

    "In extraordinary cases simple priests can administer Confirmation, but only with special powers granted by the Pope.  This Proposition may be technically qualified as "sententia certa."

    Proof.  Hugh of St. Victor, Durandus, and other Scholastic theologians deny the right of the Supreme Pontiff to grant the special power referred to; but there is now no longer any reason to doubt it.  Thomists, Scotists, Bellarmine, Suarez and De Lugo, all regard Confirmation administered by simple priests with papal authority as valid.  Our thesis cannot be demonstrated directly from Sacred Scripture and we therefore have to rely on Tradition... [here follows a proof from the Eastern Tradition]...

    b) In the Latin Church Confirmation, as a rule, has always been administered by bishops, and only in exceptional cases by priests.

    This practice, which is far more in conformity with the dogmatic teaching defined at Trent, gained the upper hand in the West after the thirteenth century, when Baptism and Confirmation gradually became separated by constantly lengthening intervals of time.  The administration of Confirmation by priests was and is comparatively rare, but cases have occurred in every century since the time of Gregory the Great, though always with express papal authorization and with chrism consecrated by bishops.  Since he Council of Trent the Holy see has at various times granted the right to administer Confirmation to Jesuit missionaries, to the Custodian of the Holy Sepulchre at Jerusalem, the Provost of St. Hedwig's Church in Berlin and other priests.

    c) It is not easy to justify this exceptional practice in view of the fact that the validity of Confirmation has nothing to do with the power of jurisdiction, but depends entirely on the character of ordination.

    A deacon, for instance, could not validly administer this sacrament even with papal permission, whilst, on the other hand, a heretical, schismatic, suspended or excommunicated bishop can do so even against the express command of the Pope.  How, then, is it possible for a simple priest to confirm validly, if the papal permit does not supply the lack of episcopal consecration?

    Various attempts have been made to overcome this difficulty.

    Some theologians have assumed that the papal delegation is not a mere extrinsic permission but implies an intrinsic perfectioning of the character of ordination by which the delegated priest receives the episcopal character.  Others hold with Suarez that the papal authorization merely gives to the delegated priest a higher extrinsic dignity which, together with his sacerdotal character, suffices to enable him to administer the Sacrament validly.  Both hypotheses are unsatisfactory.  A simpler and more effective solution is that devised by Gregory of Valentia.  It was the will of Christ, he says, that both bishops and priests should be empowered to administer Confirmation, the former as ordinary ministers of the sacrament by virtue of the episcopal consecration the latter as its extraordinary ministers by virtue of the priesthood, leaving it to the pope to determine the manner of exercising this latent power."
     "The faithful should obey the apostolic advice not to know more than is necessary, but to know in moderation." - Pope Clement XIII, In Dominico Agro (1761) 

    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Supplied Jurisdiction, Common Error, and Confirmation?
    « Reply #7 on: April 16, 2021, 02:32:14 PM »
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  • The validity of confirmation does not depend on jurisdiction.  The special powers that the pope has sometimes granted to priests, empowering them to confirm, is not of the power of jurisdiction, but is in relation to the power of order.  It is an activation of a latent power priests possess by virtue of their power of orders.  Without this "activation", priests can not validly confirm.  This is not a question of supplied jurisdiction, and it would seem that any attempted confirmation by a traditional priest these days would be doubtful, at best.


    The Sacraments: A Dogmatic Treatise.  1917.
    Joseph Pohle, Ph.D., D.D.
    Pp. 310-313:

    "In extraordinary cases simple priests can administer Confirmation, but only with special powers granted by the Pope.  This Proposition may be technically qualified as "sententia certa."

    Proof.  Hugh of St. Victor, Durandus, and other Scholastic theologians deny the right of the Supreme Pontiff to grant the special power referred to; but there is now no longer any reason to doubt it.  Thomists, Scotists, Bellarmine, Suarez and De Lugo, all regard Confirmation administered by simple priests with papal authority as valid.  Our thesis cannot be demonstrated directly from Sacred Scripture and we therefore have to rely on Tradition... [here follows a proof from the Eastern Tradition]...

    b) In the Latin Church Confirmation, as a rule, has always been administered by bishops, and only in exceptional cases by priests.

    This practice, which is far more in conformity with the dogmatic teaching defined at Trent, gained the upper hand in the West after the thirteenth century, when Baptism and Confirmation gradually became separated by constantly lengthening intervals of time.  The administration of Confirmation by priests was and is comparatively rare, but cases have occurred in every century since the time of Gregory the Great, though always with express papal authorization and with chrism consecrated by bishops.  Since he Council of Trent the Holy see has at various times granted the right to administer Confirmation to Jesuit missionaries, to the Custodian of the Holy Sepulchre at Jerusalem, the Provost of St. Hedwig's Church in Berlin and other priests.

    c) It is not easy to justify this exceptional practice in view of the fact that the validity of Confirmation has nothing to do with the power of jurisdiction, but depends entirely on the character of ordination.

    A deacon, for instance, could not validly administer this sacrament even with papal permission, whilst, on the other hand, a heretical, schismatic, suspended or excommunicated bishop can do so even against the express command of the Pope.  How, then, is it possible for a simple priest to confirm validly, if the papal permit does not supply the lack of episcopal consecration?

    Various attempts have been made to overcome this difficulty.

    Some theologians have assumed that the papal delegation is not a mere extrinsic permission but implies an intrinsic perfectioning of the character of ordination by which the delegated priest receives the episcopal character.  Others hold with Suarez that the papal authorization merely gives to the delegated priest a higher extrinsic dignity which, together with his sacerdotal character, suffices to enable him to administer the Sacrament validly.  Both hypotheses are unsatisfactory.  A simpler and more effective solution is that devised by Gregory of Valentia.  It was the will of Christ, he says, that both bishops and priests should be empowered to administer Confirmation, the former as ordinary ministers of the sacrament by virtue of the episcopal consecration the latter as its extraordinary ministers by virtue of the priesthood, leaving it to the pope to determine the manner of exercising this latent power."
    Hmmm what about Eastern Orthodox? Do they validly confirm?


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Supplied Jurisdiction, Common Error, and Confirmation?
    « Reply #8 on: April 16, 2021, 02:39:03 PM »
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  • The validity of confirmation does not depend on jurisdiction.  

    What this is saying is that the power to confirm is not jurisdictional, but latent in the priesthood.  It's similar to the jurisdiction to hear Confessions.  Jurisdiction doesn't confer the POWER of absolution to the priest but somehow "activates"  it.  So for a priest to validly hear Confessions, there has to be jurisdiction, and the same thing applies to Confirmation.

    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: Supplied Jurisdiction, Common Error, and Confirmation?
    « Reply #9 on: April 16, 2021, 03:39:16 PM »
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  •  Laislaus said what I was thinking. My point is there can be a great danger to thinking that just because an eastern church does something that it applies to situations in the Latin church. This is why it is always best to keep to one's own particular rite. Mixing between churches is not something that should be done frequently, especially if one is not well versed within the realms of their own tradition. This can lead to great confusion, one can not easily live in two different worlds.
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا