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Offline tigertom

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Sunday Shopping - What Is The Catholic Ideal?
« on: October 28, 2018, 05:52:25 AM »
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  • If one lived in a truly Catholic society, where the Church's teachings on Sunday trading were enforced in local law and custom, would a good Catholic be able to:

    - Go to Mass, amuse himself at home, have an informal football kickabout in a local park only, or ...
    - All of the above and also buy essential supplies from a local shop before 12pm, said shop closing on the dot of 12 or ...;
    - All of the above and also go to a local pub which only opened, say, 12 - 4pm ... or; 
    - All of the above and also do anything and go anywhere as long as he did no personal labour nor directly made anyone else work on his behalf i.e. in his employ?

    Background: I sing in a schola at a late Mass on Sunday and the members like to go to a pub after Mass. I don't like the idea  of having the staff working on a Sunday evening to serve me food and drink. Previously, I got browned off with going to malls on a Sunday and seeing everyone getting in a tizz buying ... inessentials, mostly.

    So, what would 'rigid, integrist' Sunday trading look like, if a holy Bishop could dictate it? Thank you.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sunday Shopping - What Is The Catholic Ideal?
    « Reply #1 on: October 28, 2018, 12:08:27 PM »
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  • Boy, you've opened up a can of worms.   :laugh1:  I feel another 500-page thread in the works.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sunday Shopping - What Is The Catholic Ideal?
    « Reply #2 on: October 28, 2018, 12:27:04 PM »
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  • There's a bit of hypocrisy out there on this subject among Traditional Catholics.  I've known Traditional Catholics who have no problem going out to eat or to a place of amusement on Sunday ... and at the same time they'll make derogatory comments about the people who work there.  It's one or the other.

    It's clear that NECESSARY work can be done on Sunday.  So, for instance, preparing a meal, even a labor-intensive one.  If follows from this that it's permitted for people to work at a place which provides necessary services ... restaurant, hospital, gas station, drug store, etc.  Some people think it has to do with money, but it does not.  If I ask someone else to do the work of preparing a meal for me, then I am required in justice to compensate them somehow for this, i.e. pay them.

    Now, the people who work there should have proportionate reason for doing so ... e.g. it's very important to them to make ends meet for their family.  Or, they're required to take rotations for working on Sundays as part of their overall job requirements.  Alternatively, we could try to dump this work on a Catholic equivalent of the "Sabbath goy," i.e. have infidels (Indians, Muslims, pagans, etc.) do this work.  But I wouldn't want to go the route of the Jews on this one.

    With that said, it's important to minimize the work done even in support of necessary things.  So, for instance, if I need gas on a Sunday (I'm not always bright enough to plan ahead), I make a point of going to a self-pay pump.  Or if i need groceries, I try to use the self-checkout lanes (which are very common these days) ... in order to minimize the level of effort required to serve my needs.  Ideally, we would tank up our cars and buy groceries the day or two before Sunday so this is not necessary.

    What's at issue is the work allowed in support of a PERMITTED activity, such as amusement.  Can I go to an amusement park, where people are being paid to work in support of this activity?  I personally lean against this, but some theologians and priests hold the opposite view.  So, for instance, they'll say I can go to a Sporting Goods store and pick up sports equipment required for my amusement that day.  Can I go to a baseball game where people are working to make it possible?  I lean against this myself.

    It's certainly gravely immoral to go to a store that provides services that are neither permitted nor necessary on a Sunday.  So, for instance, let me go car-shopping at a car dealership.  Rare is the case where you immediately need to have a car on a Sunday and you can't wait til Monday.  If you need to get somewhere, you could get a ride or call a cab.  Should I go get an oil change on my car?  Absolutely not.  Can a Home Improvement store be open on Sunday?  Not for the most part.  But what if someone's thermostat breaks in their home and they're freezing in there and need to get a new one?  I had that happen once on Christmas Day, actually, and went to a drug store that happened to have some.

    Now, one can make an argument for trying to be perfect.  Get everything you need for your necessary and permitted activities beforehand ... and spend a day or two freezing instead of replacing the thermostat ... but there's a fine line between trying to perfectly follow God's intentions with the law and becoming Pharisaical about it.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sunday Shopping - What Is The Catholic Ideal?
    « Reply #3 on: October 28, 2018, 12:43:26 PM »
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  • If I were a bishop who could also legislate civilly, I would have only a single gas station stay open in any given town on Sunday, and the gas station would only be allowed to have self-serve pumps.  I would mandate that only one employee could be there manning it, and the employee in question should be rotated every couple hours at the most, so that no single employee would have to work more than 2 hours.  And I would mandate a rotation among the different gas stations in town so that only one would stay open on any given Sunday.  So if you had 8 gas stations in town, each one would be open only once every 8 weeks.  And then no employee of theirs would work more than 2 hours every 8 weeks.  Then I would mandate that gas prices would be DOUBLE on Sundays, to encourage people to fill up on Saturdays.  With that measure alone, you would QUICKLY find out how many people REALLY need gas on Sundays.  This would "inspire" people to fill up on Saturdays and not go unless absolutely necessary on Sunday, and then to buy maybe only a gallon or two.  Or perhaps I would make sure that one is open near the highway, so people travelling longer distances could stop in if they had to.  Then, in a completely Catholic society, I would allow ONE general-merchandise type store (say a Walmart type place) to remain open, with all prices doubled on that day, and also with one employee manning a few self-checkout lanes, and no shopping carts allowed (they'd be locked away).  That way people just have to grab the item or two they require that day, pay through a self-checkout, and be on their way ... and people would not have to work retrieving carts also.  I would have a city official keep a list of people who could be contacted if any citizen happened to have an urgent need, say, for instance, a car mechanic, or two truck operator, or person who owned a specialty type of store, so if the need was considered urgent enough, the person could be contacted to provide assistance to the person in need.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sunday Shopping - What Is The Catholic Ideal?
    « Reply #4 on: October 28, 2018, 12:47:01 PM »
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  • Come to think of it, I'm overcomplicating things.

    Just mandate that all prices for goods and services, along with employee wages, double on necessary items and quadruple on unnecessary items on Sundays.  Stores already maintain item categories.  So, for instance, there's a day in Ohio where "school related items" are tax free.  So the stores can easily flag merchadise categories this way.

    If you doubled prices on necessary items (food, gas, etc.) and quadrupled them on unnecessary items ... this problem would QUICKLY take care of itself with little additional intervention.   :laugh1:  You'd be surprised how many people would suddenly get into the habit of deferring things til Monday or remembering to fill up with gas on Saturday.  You'd be amazed at how few teenage girls would go to the Mall shopping for clothes when they would have to pay 4x the price.  And then, with dramatically reduced demand, most stores would just close down on Sunday.  Then also mandate that no given employee can work more than 2 hours on a Sunday.  Done.  Problem solved.


    Offline Vintagewife3

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    Re: Sunday Shopping - What Is The Catholic Ideal?
    « Reply #5 on: October 28, 2018, 12:52:46 PM »
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  • I don’t know if anyone has read little house on the prairie, but there are a few pages in the book when the family isn’t allowed to move, or doing anything more the pray or read by the fathers orders because it’s Sunday. When I was little that sounded like torture, and now as a mother I find it a lovely idea! 🙂

    But, Ladislaus explained everything quite well I believe! This is something I keep trying to work on. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sunday Shopping - What Is The Catholic Ideal?
    « Reply #6 on: October 28, 2018, 01:01:48 PM »
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  • When I was little that sounded like torture, and now as a mother I find it a lovely idea! 🙂

    :laugh1: ... boy do I know what you mean.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sunday Shopping - What Is The Catholic Ideal?
    « Reply #7 on: October 28, 2018, 01:04:05 PM »
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  • This is something I keep trying to work on.

    Yeah, I find that I've become a little lax about this myself lately.  I need to make a point of getting gas on Saturdays.  Unfortunately, it happens a lot that we find that we're out of an ingredient required to make a planned meal.  I don't have the time to always take an inventory before Sunday.  One could prepare meals on Saturday evening, but re-warmed food isn't quite the same as a freshly-made meal, and part of enjoying the Sunday for me has always been the good meal.


    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Sunday Shopping - What Is The Catholic Ideal?
    « Reply #8 on: October 28, 2018, 02:33:23 PM »
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  • When I was little, Sundays were observed much as Ladislaus described.
    ALL stores over 1500 sq ft were closed.  Small corner stores were allowed to be open for necessities, but not all were.
    The local newspaper printed a list in the Saturday edition (there was no Sunday edition) of places whose turn it was to be open the following day.
    Pharmacy, gas station doctor on call, restaurant etc.
    We never felt deprived.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sunday Shopping - What Is The Catholic Ideal?
    « Reply #9 on: October 28, 2018, 03:35:21 PM »
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  • When I was little, Sundays were observed much as Ladislaus described.
    ALL stores over 1500 sq ft were closed.  Small corner stores were allowed to be open for necessities, but not all were.
    The local newspaper printed a list in the Saturday edition (there was no Sunday edition) of places whose turn it was to be open the following day.
    Pharmacy, gas station doctor on call, restaurant etc.
    We never felt deprived.

    So, where was this?  This sounds great.

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Sunday Shopping - What Is The Catholic Ideal?
    « Reply #10 on: October 28, 2018, 04:08:11 PM »
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  • I grew up in NY, so the stores were open on Sundays. But in NJ, just across the state line, they had Blue laws so the great shopping meccas at the time (Paramus et al) were all closed on Sundays. I think they changed the laws in the 80's or thereabouts. It was a nice reminder to everyone to respect the Lord's Day.
    Too bad they couldn't be instituted again.


    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Sunday Shopping - What Is The Catholic Ideal?
    « Reply #11 on: October 28, 2018, 04:09:48 PM »
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  • So, where was this?  This sounds great.
    This was the law for ALL of Canada into the mid '60's or '70's. (don't remember)
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sunday Shopping - What Is The Catholic Ideal?
    « Reply #12 on: October 28, 2018, 05:52:12 PM »
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  • This was the law for ALL of Canada into the mid '60's or '70's. (don't remember)

    Really?  That's great.  Quebec or the entire country?

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Sunday Shopping - What Is The Catholic Ideal?
    « Reply #13 on: October 28, 2018, 06:55:55 PM »
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  • The whole country.  Actually Quebec was one of the first to allow Sunday shopping (they are also the ones who ripped the kneelers out of their gorgeous churches)

    I do remember hearing that the fur stores owned by Jews were closed on Saturdays (they were family owned with no other employees) and they tried opening on Sunday.  They were fined many times and finally took it to court where they lost: but within 5 years Canada had Sunday shopping. ::)
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Sunday Shopping - What Is The Catholic Ideal?
    « Reply #14 on: October 28, 2018, 07:00:15 PM »
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  • Ideally, no stores would be open because everyone would be Catholic.  Yes, doctors, nurses, pharmacists, firemen, police could work, as these are truly necessary.  Gas stations wouldn't need to be open because there would be a readily accessible church nearby within walking distance.  The only people to drive would be those who can't walk, elderly, handicapped, moms with babies.
    I don't like the idea of extremely expensive gas because there are definitely some traditional Catholics who drive long distances and cannot get to mass and back on one tank of gas.  My mother remembers being unable to go to mass during WWII when gas was rationed.  They got just enough for work, buying necessary items in town on noon break.  There was no gas left to make another round trip on Sundays to the nearest Catholic Church.  As a result, she wasn't Confirmed until age 18.  So keeping the Faith in absence of Mass and Sacraments isn't something that last happened centuries ago in Japan, as some would have you believe.  

     

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