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Author Topic: St Marys church consecration May 3 live  (Read 8283 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: St Marys church consecration May 3 live
« Reply #75 on: May 07, 2023, 07:03:58 PM »
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  • Fr Rutledge indicated in the update video on the altar that there would be no tester, reredos, or ciborium for the high altar.

    As I have said, what is even more remarkable is that most new, large-scale Novus Ordo churches being built today in a classical style include a tester, reredos, or ciborium for their altar, and in this way, even "conservative" NO churches are more traditional from the standpoint of ecclesiastical architecture than the now-mother church of the SSPX.

    The arguments elsewhere surrounding this issue have also intrigued me. We are not dealing with emergency circuмstances—having Mass offered in a hotel, warehouse, or home. We are not talking about the many sacrifices of priests and laity to preserve Tradition. We are discussing a $45+ million, multi-year project that involved the full, global coordination, vetting, and approval of the SSPX up to the highest levels of decision making, and for a church that supposedly had every inch of its design discussed and finalized. If this will be a model church, which it has been presented as, then what precisely is it modelling? In what ways does it conform to the Roman tradition, but more importantly, how does it deviate from it? Look at all the PR that self-appointed spokesmen for the SSPX are making on behalf of the altar. "You are ignorant of tradition. We have bigger issues to be concerned about. How much did you donate? Don't go to Mass here at all if you don't like it. De gustibus...". Etc. Stop making a big deal, they all say, of your personal pet peeves.

    The altar resembles a NO table, and many laity intuitively recognize it even if they can't articulate why. But they are all being shut down as naysayers and by unhinged emotional histrionics if you take a brief look on social media or even in personal conversations.

    And so the frog continues to approach a boil...

    Add to this other strange architectural projects, like the ghoulish, psychedelic church in Madrid, the freestanding altar in Econe, the minimalist chapel in the American seminary, etc., and one certainly gets the impression it’s all to please Rome.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: St Marys church consecration May 3 live
    « Reply #76 on: May 07, 2023, 07:07:01 PM »
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  • This is an article worth seeing.  It contains pictures of the original "High Altar" for St. Peter's Basilica which was used for all the Consecrations of bishops etc. before Vatican II.

    https://www.liturgicalartsjournal.com/2022/05/the-vanquished-altar-of-chair-of.html
    I would like to clarify/correct what I wrote here for those whom I may have confused or upset in any manner.  I made a mistake in writing "for all".  It should have said "for many". 

    Oops...  I just realized that my mistake sounds sort of like the novus ordo now that I think of it... "For all" instead of "for many"...:popcorn::fryingpan:


    When I wrote "High Altar" I meant it as being an altar at which a high Mass can be sung.  Saint Peter's Basilica is special in so far as it has more than one option for that.  From what I understand, High Masses have been offered both at the altar of the Baldachin and Altar of the chair for hundreds of years.

    My reason for sharing the article was that the original "Altar of the chair of St. Peter"was removed and replaced with a TERRIBLE novus ordo "freestanding" one.  I will include pictures below of before and after.
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/


    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: St Marys church consecration May 3 live
    « Reply #77 on: May 07, 2023, 07:13:36 PM »
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  • The photo you posted here is a N.O. table. The actually altar is wayyyyy back there if you look at the post below.
    Picture of Pius the X celebrating Mass on this altar...  And a couple other pictures similar and worth seeing.

    Nope...  Definitely not novus ordo.

    (Note:. The middle picture has a 19th century date.)
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: St Marys church consecration May 3 live
    « Reply #78 on: May 07, 2023, 07:18:57 PM »
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  • Add to this other strange architectural projects, like the ghoulish, psychedelic church in Madrid, the freestanding altar in Econe, the minimalist chapel in the American seminary, etc., and one certainly gets the impression it’s all to please Rome.
    I was literally was just about to share a picture of the Econe free-standing altar with hanging Baldachin and ask if it was an on-going trend in the SSPX... 😅
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: St Marys church consecration May 3 live
    « Reply #79 on: May 07, 2023, 07:23:53 PM »
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  • For those unfamiliar...

    Here are some pictures of old churches to give examples of how free-standing altars with baldachins can actually look edifying:
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/


    Offline moneil

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    Re: St Marys church consecration May 3 live
    « Reply #80 on: May 07, 2023, 10:48:43 PM »
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  • Thank you for posting these pictures AMDGJMJ, they are interesting and instructive.

    Offline trento

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    Re: St Marys church consecration May 3 live
    « Reply #81 on: May 08, 2023, 12:02:43 AM »
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  • Fr Rutledge indicated in the update video on the altar that there would be no tester, reredos, or ciborium for the high altar.

    As I have said, what is even more remarkable is that most new, large-scale Novus Ordo churches being built today in a classical style include a tester, reredos, or ciborium for their altar, and in this way, even "conservative" NO churches are more traditional from the standpoint of ecclesiastical architecture than the now-mother church of the SSPX.

    The arguments elsewhere surrounding this issue have also intrigued me. We are not dealing with emergency circuмstances—having Mass offered in a hotel, warehouse, or home. We are not talking about the many sacrifices of priests and laity to preserve Tradition. We are discussing a $45+ million, multi-year project that involved the full, global coordination, vetting, and approval of the SSPX up to the highest levels of decision making, and for a church that supposedly had every inch of its design discussed and finalized. If this will be a model church, which it has been presented as, then what precisely is it modelling? In what ways does it conform to the Roman tradition, but more importantly, how does it deviate from it? Look at all the PR that self-appointed spokesmen for the SSPX are making on behalf of the altar. "You are ignorant of tradition. We have bigger issues to be concerned about. How much did you donate? Don't go to Mass here at all if you don't like it. De gustibus...". Etc. Stop making a big deal, they all say, of your personal pet peeves.

    The altar resembles a NO table, and many laity intuitively recognize it even if they can't articulate why. But they are all being shut down as naysayers and by unhinged emotional histrionics if you take a brief look on social media or even in personal conversations.

    And so the frog continues to approach a boil...

    If there will be no tester, then it is a pity because the altar as it is is getting overwhelmed by the size of the building and the artwork surrounding the apse. 




    I will disagree with canis on calling this as the mother church of the SSPX. The mother church of the SSPX should be the Church of the Immaculate Heart of Mary in Econe.

    Offline canis

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    Re: St Marys church consecration May 3 live
    « Reply #82 on: May 08, 2023, 01:15:17 AM »
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  • Trento, I agree with what you're saying. I meant to say that it seems from all the official SSPX fanfare that the Immaculata is being presented as if it were the new "mother church". Due to the fact that it is now, by far, the largest SSPX church, it will inevitably be seen that way by laity and in any new church project moving forward. Everything will compare itself to the Immaculata as the highest ideal to be achieved.


    Offline trento

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    Re: St Marys church consecration May 3 live
    « Reply #83 on: May 08, 2023, 02:18:46 AM »
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  • Trento, I agree with what you're saying. I meant to say that it seems from all the official SSPX fanfare that the Immaculata is being presented as if it were the new "mother church". Due to the fact that it is now, by far, the largest SSPX church, it will inevitably be seen that way by laity and in any new church project moving forward. Everything will compare itself to the Immaculata as the highest ideal to be achieved.

    Highest ideal to be achieved is rather far-fetched. Largest church of the SSPX so far, yes. As a comparison, Saint Peter's Basilica is seen as the greatest and most prestigious Roman basilica, however the title of Mother Church belongs to Saint John Lateran.

    Offline canis

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    Re: St Marys church consecration May 3 live
    « Reply #84 on: May 08, 2023, 04:02:01 AM »
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  • Highest ideal to be achieved is rather far-fetched. Largest church of the SSPX so far, yes. As a comparison, Saint Peter's Basilica is seen as the greatest and most prestigious Roman basilica, however the title of Mother Church belongs to Saint John Lateran.
    I thought I agreed with you, but now I sense a continual parsing that unfortunately suggests, comme on dit, we have parted ways. Perhaps you are right, but as you imply, only time will tell. I will only repeat that perhaps what has impressed me more than the actual new church itself is all the fanfare that has accompanied its construction and completion.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: St Marys church consecration May 3 live
    « Reply #85 on: May 08, 2023, 05:29:13 AM »
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  • A priest told me the purpose of the Immaculata project was to foster unity in St. Mary’s (kind of like the Rosary Crusades, was my thought), to heal all the divisions there.  Not sure what they’re divided about though.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Comrade

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    Re: St Marys church consecration May 3 live
    « Reply #86 on: May 08, 2023, 08:43:21 AM »
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  • Even the murals look N.O. with their guitars.:laugh1: 



    Offline moneil

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    Re: St Marys church consecration May 3 live
    « Reply #87 on: May 08, 2023, 12:11:42 PM »
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  • Quote
    Even the murals look N.O. with their guitars.



    While perhaps being "impertinent" I immediately thought of Psalm 150:


    Quote
    3 Praise him with the sound of trumpet: praise him with psaltery and harp.
    4 Praise him with timbrel and choir: praise him with strings and organs.
    5 Praise him on high sounding cymbals: praise him on cymbals of joy: let every spirit praise the Lord. Alleluia.

    The Douay-Rheims Holy Bible, Translated from the Latin Vulgate (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2009), Ps 150:3–5.

    I don't know the "back story" of the murals, but I would presume that they are likely copies of works of ancient origin rather than a contemporary composition.  In either event, the depiction of stringed instruments in the worship of God is hardly "new order". 


    Offline Comrade

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    Re: St Marys church consecration May 3 live
    « Reply #88 on: May 08, 2023, 01:23:18 PM »
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  • While perhaps being "impertinent" I immediately thought of Psalm 150:


    I don't know the "back story" of the murals, but I would presume that they are likely copies of works of ancient origin rather than a contemporary composition.  In either event, the depiction of stringed instruments in the worship of God is hardly "new order".


    It was a joke. 

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: St Marys church consecration May 3 live
    « Reply #89 on: May 08, 2023, 03:28:14 PM »
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  • Thank you for posting these pictures AMDGJMJ, they are interesting and instructive.
    You are most welcome.  :cowboy:
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/