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Author Topic: How long after apparent death may one receive Extreme Unction?  (Read 1198 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: How long after apparent death may one receive Extreme Unction?
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2022, 05:23:08 PM »
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  • I was thinking it had more to do with putrefaction setting in more quickly after prolonged illness.  I suspect that heart beat was a first Modernist step toward where we’re at now with brain death.  Traditional Thomistic theology would caution against using organ function as a criterion because it’s more about the presence of the animal soul, which is tied to putrefaction.  I don’t buy heart beat or brain death.  While they may be signs to a point, I don’t hold them to be definitive.  We have so many examples even in natural science of people being brain dead or having had their hearts stopped and then later coming back around.

    Offline Emile

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    Re: How long after apparent death may one receive Extreme Unction?
    « Reply #16 on: May 23, 2022, 05:35:50 PM »
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  • I was thinking it had more to do with putrefaction setting in more quickly after prolonged illness.  I suspect that heart beat was a first Modernist step toward where we’re at now with brain death.  Traditional Thomistic theology would caution against using organ function as a criterion because it’s more about the presence of the animal soul, which is tied to putrefaction.  I don’t buy heart beat or brain death.  While they may be signs to a point, I don’t hold them to be definitive.  We have so many examples even in natural science of people being brain dead or having had their hearts stopped and then later coming back around.
    Yes, I've long found it interesting how many mistaken declarations of death there have been, even in modern times.
    (just a few of many cases, the last one is particularly horrible)

    https://nypost.com/2020/12/01/miracle-baby-found-alive-in-mexican-morgue-has-died/

    https://www.12news.com/article/news/nation-world/woman-declared-dead-found-alive-in-morgue-freezer/507-570517003

    https://www.businessinsider.in/a-woman-was-allegedly-frozen-alive-in-a-morgue-after-being-declared-dead-and-her-family-is-suing-the-hospital/articleshow/33203121.cms

    Makes a 3-day wake sound like a very prudent practice.
    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
    -Geoffrey Chaucer


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: How long after apparent death may one receive Extreme Unction?
    « Reply #17 on: May 23, 2022, 06:29:24 PM »
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  • Yes, I've long found it interesting how many mistaken declarations of death there have been, even in modern times.
    (just a few of many cases, the last one is particularly horrible)

    https://nypost.com/2020/12/01/miracle-baby-found-alive-in-mexican-morgue-has-died/

    https://www.12news.com/article/news/nation-world/woman-declared-dead-found-alive-in-morgue-freezer/507-570517003

    https://www.businessinsider.in/a-woman-was-allegedly-frozen-alive-in-a-morgue-after-being-declared-dead-and-her-family-is-suing-the-hospital/articleshow/33203121.cms

    Makes a 3-day wake sound like a very prudent practice.

    If I'm understanding correctly, the traditional practice, before embalming, was to have a three-day interval, to be able to observe putrefaction having set in.  Once that happens, there's no going back.

    And nobody survives embalming.

    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: How long after apparent death may one receive Extreme Unction?
    « Reply #18 on: May 23, 2022, 07:57:48 PM »
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  • It seems they can't receive it unless they have use of their  faculties.

    Quote
    [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]“The priests should remember that the sacrament of holy oil, called [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]euchelaeon[/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)], was instituted by Christ as a heavenly medicine for the health of the body as well as that of the soul. Accordingly it is to be given only to the sick at the time they desire it and while they are still in possession of their faculties. 
    Pope Benedict XIV, Ex Quo
    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben14/b14exquo.htm[/color]


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: How long after apparent death may one receive Extreme Unction?
    « Reply #19 on: May 23, 2022, 10:26:22 PM »
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  • It seems they can't receive it unless they have use of their  faculties.
    So does this rule out everyone who is unconscious or in a coma?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: How long after apparent death may one receive Extreme Unction?
    « Reply #20 on: May 23, 2022, 10:34:50 PM »
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  • It seems they can't receive it unless they have use of their  faculties.

    Absolutely incorrect.  You really have to stop posting stuff out of context.

    That passage you cite is a quotation from the Greek schismatic practice and not the pope’s teaching.  He’s going through all their practices and critiquing what must be changed in order for them to re-enter Communion with the Holy See.  These Greeks actually had a more Novus Ordite anointing of the sick perspective on it, which the pope criticized.

    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: How long after apparent death may one receive Extreme Unction?
    « Reply #21 on: May 24, 2022, 04:18:59 PM »
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  • Absolutely incorrect.  You really have to stop posting stuff out of context.

    That passage you cite is a quotation from the Greek schismatic practice and not the pope’s teaching.  He’s going through all their practices and critiquing what must be changed in order for them to re-enter Communion with the Holy See.  These Greeks actually had a more Novus Ordite anointing of the sick perspective on it, which the pope criticized.
    Benedict XIV also says
    Quote
    [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]We shall not speak in this letter of the institution of this sacrament by Christ or of its effect. Nor shall We deal with the rules to be observed in administering it, namely that it should be conferred not on those who are in good health but only on the faithful who are seriously ill while they are still fully conscious[/color]


    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: How long after apparent death may one receive Extreme Unction?
    « Reply #22 on: May 24, 2022, 05:43:09 PM »
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  • Breathing stops before cardiac function ceases. The electrical activity of the heart can go on for a while after breathing stops


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: How long after apparent death may one receive Extreme Unction?
    « Reply #23 on: May 24, 2022, 05:56:16 PM »
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  • Benedict XIV also says

    And yet you persist in taking things out of context.