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Author Topic: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism  (Read 2916 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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I'd like to know exactly what St. Augustine thought in this regard. Is the claim he thought infants would be tormented with the fires of hell, albeit "mildly," some form of Catholic urban myth?

I read one work that claimed that Augustine thought infants would be so punished, and it cited the following from St. Augustine's works:

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Chapter 93. Both the First and the Second Deaths are the Consequence of Sin. Punishment is Proportioned to Guilt.

And neither the first death, which takes place when the soul is compelled to leave the body, nor the second death, which takes place when the soul is not permitted to leave the suffering body, would have been inflicted on man had no one sinned. And, of course, the mildest punishment of all will fall upon those who have added no actual sin, to the original sin they brought with them; and as for the rest who have added such actual sins, the punishment of each will be the more tolerable in the next world, according as his iniquity has been less in this world.

CHURCH FATHERS: Handbook on Faith, Hope and Love (St. Augustine) (newadvent.org)


Where exactly are the "punishments" of the flames and torments of hell there?

Innocent III stated that deprivation of the beatific vision is a "punishment," the mildest, obviously: "the punishment of original sin is deprivation of the vision of God, but the punishment of actual sin is the torments of everlasting hell. " DZ 410.

Elsewhere, in his work, Against Julian, St. Augustine states:


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But I do not say that children who die without the baptism of Christ will undergo such grievous punishment that it were better for them never to have been born, since our Lord did not say these words of any sinner you please, but only of the most base and ungodly. If we consider what He said about the Sodomites, which certainly He did not mean of them only that it will be more tolerable for one than for another in the day of judgment, 2 who can doubt that nonbaptized infants, having only original sin and no burden of personal sins, will suffer the lightest condemnation of all? I cannot define the amount and kind of their punishment, but I dare not say it were better for them never to have existed than to exist there. But you, also, who contend they are, as it were, free of any condemnation, do not wish to think about the condemnation by which you punish them by estranging from the life of God and from the kingdom of God so many images of God, and by separating them from the pious parents you so eloquently urge to procreate them. They suffer these separations unjustly, if they have no sin at all; or if justly, then they have original sin.

The Fathers Of The Church A New Translation Volume 35 Saint Augustine Against Julian : Roy Joseph Deferrari : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive


St. Augustine's opinion on the "punishment" of nonbaptized infants who die in infancy appears to accord with the view of Innocent III, and merely mean estrangement from the kingdom of heaven.

Until we're shown proof - an actual quote from St. Augustine - I'm calling FOUL on this claim that he thought infants would be punished by torments or flames in hell.





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I originally posted this in another thread. Because it is an important topic for various reasons, I wanted to start a separate thread on it. PLEASE REPLY HERE. 



Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2023, 08:18:14 AM »
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  • :laugh1: Be careful, you are treading on the sandy ground Ladislaus used to build his “theological tower”. If his Saint Augustine/Limbo argument falls, his whole tower crumbles to the ground.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #2 on: September 10, 2023, 03:31:02 PM »
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  • who can doubt that nonbaptized infants, having only original sin and no burden of personal sins, will suffer the lightest condemnation of all? I cannot define the amount and kind of their punishment, but I dare not say it were better for them never to have existed than to exist there. But you, also, who contend they are, as it were, free of any condemnation, do not wish to think about the condemnation by which you punish them by estranging from the life of God and from the kingdom of God
    He distinguishes his position from those who say the infants are "free of any condemnation" and proceeds to elaborate that they admit a single condemnation, the deprivation of the Beatific Vision that is.

    Clearly, Augustine believed infants suffered some kind of punishment besides the "punishment" (improperly so called because not receiving an inheritance is not a punishment) of deprivation of Heaven his opponents held.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #3 on: September 10, 2023, 03:33:59 PM »
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  • Here's the Catholic Encyclopaedia on Limbo.


    Quote
    In his earlier writings St. Augustine himself agrees with the common tradition. Thus in De libero arbitrio III, written several years before the Pelagian controversy, discussing the fate of unbaptized infants after death, he writes: "It is superfluous to inquire about the merits of one who has not any merits. For one need not hesitate to hold that life may be neutral as between good conduct and sin, and that as between reward and punishment there may be a neutral sentence of the judge." But even before the outbreak of the Pelagian controversy St. Augustine had already abandoned the lenient traditional view, and in the course of the controversy he himself condemned, and persuaded the Council of Carthage (418) to condemn, the substantially identical Pelagian teaching affirming the existence of "an intermediate place, or of any place anywhere at all (ullus alicubi locus), in which children who pass out of this life unbaptized live in happiness" (Denzinger 102). This means that St. Augustine and the African Fathers believed that unbaptized infants share in the common positive misery of the damned, and the very most that St. Augustine concedes is that their punishment is the mildest of all, so mild indeed that one may not say that for them non-existence would be preferable to existence in such a state (Of Sin and Merit I.21; Contra Jul. V, 44; etc.). But this Augustinian teaching was an innovation in its day, and the history of subsequent Catholic speculation on this subject is taken up chiefly with the reaction which has ended in a return to the pre-Augustinian tradition.

    (...)

    St. Anselm was at one with St. Augustine in holding that unbaptized children share in the positive sufferings of the damned; and Abelard was the first to rebel against the severity of the Augustinian tradition on this point.


    Exactly as Ladislaus said.

    Maybe you should have been less confident and not "calling foul" before investigating a bit.

    Offline EWPJ

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #4 on: September 10, 2023, 04:47:12 PM »
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  • Abelard was also a heretic on several issues.  It's my understanding that Original Sin is an actual sin, not just a condition or status.  I think that idea is where the severity of the St. Augustine view springs forth.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #5 on: September 10, 2023, 06:57:36 PM »
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  • It's my understanding that Original Sin is an actual sin, not just a condition or status.  I think that idea is where the severity of the St. Augustine view springs forth.


    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2083.htm#article4


    Quote
    Reply to Objection 2. The infection of actual sin belongs only to the powers which are moved by the will of the sinner. But the infection of original sin is not derived from the will of the contractor, but through his natural origin, which is effected by the generative power. Hence it is this power that is infected by original sin.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #6 on: September 11, 2023, 05:38:07 AM »
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  • He distinguishes his position from those who say the infants are "free of any condemnation" and proceeds to elaborate that they admit a single condemnation, the deprivation of the Beatific Vision that is.

    Clearly, Augustine believed infants suffered some kind of punishment besides the "punishment" (improperly so called because not receiving an inheritance is not a punishment) of deprivation of Heaven his opponents held.

    Yes, denial of the beatific vision is a "condemnation," and infants are part of "all men" condemned as a result of Adam's condemnation, which can only be removed by baptism in Christ. Or haven't you read Romans 5, or heard of "original sin"?

    Here, I'll help you Marulus:

    Romans 5:18Therefore, as by the offence of one, unto all men to condemnation; so also by the justice of one, unto all men to justification of life.

    Here's the Council of Trent:


    Quote
    FIFTH SESSION

    2. If any one asserts, that the prevarication of Adam injured himself alone, and not his
    posterity; and that the holiness and justice, received of God, which he lost, he lost for
    himself alone, and not for us also; or that he, being defiled by the sin of disobedience, has
    only transfused death, and pains of the body, into the whole human race, but not sin also,
    which is the death of the soul; let him be anathema:--whereas he contradicts the apostle
    who says; By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed
    upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

    SIXTH SESSION, CHAPTER I.


    On the Inability of Nature and of the Law to justify man.

    The holy Synod declares first, that, for the correct and sound understanding of the
    doctrine of Justification, it is necessary [Page 31] that each one recognise and confess,
    that, whereas all men had lost their innocence in the prevarication of Adam-having
    become unclean, and, as the apostle says, by nature children of wrath . . .

    And denial of the beatific vision is a "punishment." Perhaps not in your mind, but in the mind of Innocent III, whose opinion is in Denzinger, and yours isn't.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #7 on: September 11, 2023, 05:39:57 AM »
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  • Here's the Catholic Encyclopaedia on Limbo.



    Exactly as Ladislaus said.

    Maybe you should have been less confident and not "calling foul" before investigating a bit.

    I'm perfectly aware of the CE article on Limbo, and on baptism of desire, etc.

    As I said: where is the quote from St. Augustine saying infants dying without baptism are subject to "torments" and the "fires of hell"? Still waiting. As of now, it's still in the "myth" category. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #8 on: September 11, 2023, 06:47:45 AM »
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  • I'm perfectly aware of the CE article on Limbo, and on baptism of desire, etc.

    As I said: where is the quote from St. Augustine saying infants dying without baptism are subject to "torments" and the "fires of hell"? Still waiting. As of now, it's still in the "myth" category.


    You're not a very clear thinker.  We're distinguishing between the non-suffering (in fact, perfect happiness state) of Limbo vs. the suffering state.  As the EENS definitions tell us, each suffers in proportion to their sins.  What was under dispute was whether Original Sin alone led to suffering in Hell period, and not the degree of suffering.  St. Augustine held that their suffering was mild, but that they suffered nevertheless, i.e. experienced a positive punishment.  St. Thomas stated that not only do they not suffer, but they experience perfect natural happiness.  It's all laid out quite clearly in the CE article.  We're not arguing about the degree of their suffering but about whether they suffer at all.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #9 on: September 11, 2023, 06:49:46 AM »
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  • And denial of the beatific vision is a "punishment." Perhaps not in your mind, but in the mind of Innocent III, whose opinion is in Denzinger, and yours isn't.


    So what?  St. Thomas Aquinas taught other wise.  I, and nearly all Catholic theologians since St. Robert Bellarmine, agree with him.  What is this stupidity with "Denizinger", which I have already discussed.  Inclusion in Denzinger was an editorial decision, giving Innocent III's opinion on the matter more weight than it deserves, not some act of the Church that you pretend it to be.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #10 on: September 11, 2023, 06:54:02 AM »
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  • Abelard was also a heretic on several issues.  It's my understanding that Original Sin is an actual sin, not just a condition or status.  I think that idea is where the severity of the St. Augustine view springs forth.

    Nah, Abelard was railroaded.  He was no heretic.  Abelard basically invented the scholastic method and some, including unfortunately St. Bernard, wrongly considered it impious.  I wrote a long post about it.  His work "Sic ad non." basically pioneered the method of considering and then refuting counter arguments that was made famous by St. Thomas.  This was considered to be impiety at the time.  Abelard did make some enemies due to his arrogance, so that didn't help his case.

    But regardless of what you say about Abelard, St. Thomas not only fully embraced Abelard's opinion but took it to the next level by teaching that infants who die without Baptism experience perfect natural happiness.  Now, St. Thomas is not the Magisterium, and you're entitled to hold to the Augustinian opinion, but you'd be in the minority, and on the same side as the Jansenists.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #11 on: September 11, 2023, 06:56:54 AM »
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  • Not sure what the big problem is here.  I've repeatedly stated that you're entitled to side with the Jansenists and cling to the opinion of St. Augustine.  I agree with St. Thomas (and St. Gregory nαzιanzen) rather than with Innocent III, except that there is in fact a sense in which the loss of the Beatific Vision is a "punishment", a relative sense, where it's not having something that one could have had. 

    One very apt analogy might be like winning the huge multi-million dollar lottery and than losing the ticket.  If I knew that I had the winning ticket but then lost it, that would cause me a tremendous amount of grief.  But not winning the lottery if you never bought a ticket or buying a $1 ticket that was a non-winner doesn't have the same effect.  St. Thomas likens their state to an individual who didn't win the lottery because he didn't buy a ticket vs. the pain of loss experienced by the individual who had the winning ticket but lost it, where St. Augustine's view is more along the lines of the guy who had a non-winning ticket and was upset over not winning the lottery.  Meanwhile, those who were baptized but then lost their souls experience the pain of loss analogous to the guy who had the winning ticket but then lost it.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #12 on: September 11, 2023, 07:15:24 AM »
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  • You're not a very clear thinker.  We're distinguishing between the non-suffering (in fact, perfect happiness state) of Limbo vs. the suffering state.  As the EENS definitions tell us, each suffers in proportion to their sins.  What was under dispute was whether Original Sin alone led to suffering in Hell period, and not the degree of suffering.  St. Augustine held that their suffering was mild, but that they suffered nevertheless, i.e. experienced a positive punishment.  St. Thomas stated that not only do they not suffer, but they experience perfect natural happiness.  It's all laid out quite clearly in the CE article.  We're not arguing about the degree of their suffering but about whether they suffer at all.

    No, you're not a very clear thinker. You argue that there is a radical change in theological opinion and consensus, thereby invalidating the consensus of theologians,  showing how it can be false. Ergo, the consensus on baptism of desire can be wrong, and you right.

    Your argument is, as Quo said, built on sand. There is no radical change in theological consensus on the fate of unbaptized infants. St. Augustine viewed the deprivation of the beatific vision as a "punishment" due to original sin. Those who place infants in Limbo also view them as being deprived of the beatific vision, as Augustine did. Augustine did not anywhere, to my knowledge, indicate that these unbaptized infants suffered anything beyond the same "penalty" as those who call the place these infants go to, "Limbo" - i.e., the sole penalty of deprivation of the beatific vision. 

    There is simply no change in theological consensus, but a change in mere terminology. Or so it appears. No one, certainly not you, has shown otherwise. I say the claim that there has been a "radical change" in the opinions of theologians about these unbaptized infants is belied by the actual facts: the actually expressed opinion of St. Augustine, the "opinion" of Innocent III.

    You can say Augustine described the deprivation of the beatific vision to these infants as "suffering," while others didn't use that term. That is merely a semantic distinction devoid of the theological consequence you want to lay upon it, a difference in use of terms. It is not a radical theological difference showing a contradiction in position between St. Augustine and St. Thomas and those who don't describe the infants as "suffering." The infants, for both, are under the "penalty" of deprivation of the beatific vision, nothing more.

    No one has shown us that St. Augustine believed these infants received a penalty beyond loss of the beatific vision, or that they endured a "suffering" that was different than that. Perhaps someone will, but you haven't, and neither has anyone else.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #13 on: September 11, 2023, 12:46:01 PM »
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  • You can say Augustine described the deprivation of the beatific vision to these infants as "suffering," while others didn't use that term. That is merely a semantic distinction devoid of the theological consequence you want to lay upon it, a difference in use of terms. It is not a radical theological difference showing a contradiction in position between St. Augustine and St. Thomas and those who don't describe the infants as "suffering." The infants, for both, are under the "penalty" of deprivation of the beatific vision, nothing more.

    What pathetic sophistry.

    Are you pretending not to see the difference between a state of perfect natural happiness and suffering a positive punishment or are you that blind?

    Either way you should stay out of intellectual discussions.

    The fact that you still haven't grasped how the quotes you yourself provided prove you wrong even after I pointed it out is likewise beyond me.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #14 on: September 11, 2023, 12:49:53 PM »
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  • Let me try to help you see once more.

    How does Augustine's position differ from those he is addressing?