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Author Topic: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism  (Read 2885 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #75 on: September 14, 2023, 06:34:45 PM »
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  • Here's what CE says about St. Robert's understanding of St. Augustine:

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    It is clear that Bellarmine found the situation embarrassing, being unwilling, as he was, to admit that St. Thomas and the Schoolmen generally were in conflict with what St. Augustine and other Fathers considered to be de fide, and what the Council of Florence seemed to have taught definitively. Hence he names Catharinus and some others as revivers of the Pelagian error, as though their teaching differed in substance from the general teaching of the School, and tries in a milder way to refute what he concedes to be the view of St. Thomas (op. cit., vi-vii). He himself adopts a view which is substantially that of Abelard mentioned above; but he is obliged to do violence to the text of St. Augustine and other Fathers in his attempt to explain them in conformity with this view, and to contradict the principle he elsewhere insists upon that "original sin does not destroy the natural but only the supernatural order." (op. cit., iv).

    We both have issues with the CE, as you know. One of my "favorite" errors is in its article on Predestination:

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    The notion of predestination comprises two essential elements: God's infallible foreknowledge ( prœscientia ), and His immutable decree ( decretum ) of eternal happiness. The theologian who, following in the footsteps of the Pelagians, would limit the Divine activity to the eternal foreknowledge and exclude the Divine will, would at once fall into Deism, which asserts that God, having created all things, leaves man and the universe to their fate and refrains from all active interference. Though the purely natural gifts of God, as descent from pious parents, good education, and the providential guidance of man's external career, may also be called effects of predestination, still, strictly speaking, the term implies only those blessings which lie in the supernatural sphere, as sanctifying grace, all actual graces, and among them in particular those which carry with them final perseverance and a happy death. Since in reality only those reach heaven who die in the state of justification or sanctifying grace , all these and only these are numbered among the predestined, strictly so called. From this it follows that we must reckon among them also all children who die in baptismal grace, as well as those adults who, after a life stained with sin, are converted on their death-beds. The same is true of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true Church of Christ, yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jєωs, Mahommedans, and pagans. Those fortunate Catholics who at the close of a long life are still clothed in their baptismal innocence, or who after many relapses into mortal sin persevere till the end, are not indeed predestined more firmly, but are more signally favoured than the last-named categories of persons.



    Predestination - Encyclopedia Volume - Catholic Encyclopedia - Catholic Online

    Read St. Robert's opinion on the issue of this thread again - Chapter VI in the excerpt contained in the article on pp. 16-17. I don't see St. Robert's opinion departing from Augustine at all, whom he quotes at length in the Chapter, and not by way of distinction, but agreement. He doesn't quote Abelard at all. 

    I question whether St. Robert agreed with Abelard. From what I read, in St. Robert's own expression of his view, he "adopts a view which is substantially that of" Augustine. 

    The CE is really only useful as confirmation of another source of support, of a reliable independent witness. One can also use it to support an argument in the sense that "I can't be out of my mind or heretical in this, cf. the CE, which agrees with me." But it's limited as authority to those senses in my view. 

    I say if one agrees with the CE one can't be "heretical" . . . but that's only because I don't make that call. I would call the above excerpt . . . heretical. :laugh1:

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline EWPJ

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #76 on: September 17, 2023, 08:18:42 PM »
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  • Nah, Abelard was railroaded.  He was no heretic.  Abelard basically invented the scholastic method and some, including unfortunately St. Bernard, wrongly considered it impious.  I wrote a long post about it.  His work "Sic ad non." basically pioneered the method of considering and then refuting counter arguments that was made famous by St. Thomas.  This was considered to be impiety at the time.  Abelard did make some enemies due to his arrogance, so that didn't help his case.

    But regardless of what you say about Abelard, St. Thomas not only fully embraced Abelard's opinion but took it to the next level by teaching that infants who die without Baptism experience perfect natural happiness.  Now, St. Thomas is not the Magisterium, and you're entitled to hold to the Augustinian opinion, but you'd be in the minority, and on the same side as the Jansenists.

    Sorry for taking a few days to get back to this Lad.  I must disagree here and had to look up the source for this because I knew I read it somewhere.

    Abelard had 19 condemned errors at the Council of Sens in 1140, that to the best of my knowledge, he hadn't recanted before his death (I'm not 100% sure on this point.)  Pope Innocent II had pronounced the anathema of heretic on him and excommunicated him to Henry the Bishop of Sens on July 16th 1140.  Unless you want to argue that Pope Innocent II condemnation against Abelard carried no weight for some reason or that Abelard recanted his errors/heresies before death. 

    Source: Denzinger, Sources of Catholic Dogma p 150-151. 


    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #77 on: September 18, 2023, 04:25:35 PM »
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  • This is relevant to Augustine's view on salvation of infants, although not directly to their punishment.

    Not only did St. Augustine believe the sacrament of baptism was necessary for all, he believed that every single person, including infants (!) must receive the Eucharist.





    This gives us an insight into Augustine's mind - he does not shy away from harsh doctrine. It would hardly be inconsistent for him to consign infants to positive punishments.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #78 on: September 19, 2023, 06:29:12 AM »
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  • Theologians even today still hold that the Eucharist is necessary for all, but not by an absolute necessity of means, as Baptism is, but rather by a moral necessity and a necessity of precept.  There's an article in Catholic Encyclopedia discussing the matter.  Of course, in the Eastern Rites, infants receive Holy Communion at their Baptism, even an infants.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #79 on: September 19, 2023, 07:29:02 AM »
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  • This is relevant to Augustine's view on salvation of infants, although not directly to their punishment.

    Not only did St. Augustine believe the sacrament of baptism was necessary for all, he believed that every single person, including infants (!) must receive the Eucharist.





    This gives us an insight into Augustine's mind - he does not shy away from harsh doctrine. It would hardly be inconsistent for him to consign infants to positive punishments.

    No, it is not related to their punishment, which isn't mentioned. It says they do not have "life." Yes, they do not have "life" in Christ:

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    John 11:25-25

    25 Jesus said to her: I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, although he be dead, shall live:

    26 And every one that liveth, and believeth in me, shall not die for ever.

    "It would hardly be inconsistent for him to consign infants to positive punishments."

    The "it would hardly be inconsistent for him" is not a basis for ascribing actual belief of a position to St. Augustine or anyone else. Take a moment to think about the absurdity of such a claim. 

    This thread concerns what St. Augustine said and affirmed about the punishment of infants who die without baptism.

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #80 on: September 19, 2023, 07:33:52 AM »
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  • No, it is not related to their punishment, which isn't mentioned. It says they do not have "life." Yes, they do not have "life" in Christ:

    "It would hardly be inconsistent for him to consign infants to positive punishments."

    The "it would hardly be inconsistent for him" is not a basis for ascribing actual belief of a position to St. Augustine or anyone else. Take a moment to think about the absurdity of such a claim. 

    This thread concerns what St. Augustine said and affirmed about the punishment of infants who die without baptism.


    Actually, Marulus, if you insist on seeing this as relevant to the "punishment" of the infants, the only "punishment" implicated is denial of eternal "life" with Christ - i.e., the deprivation of the eternal beatific vision. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #81 on: September 19, 2023, 11:08:04 AM »
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  • No, it is not related to their punishment, which isn't mentioned. 
    I acknowledged that. There's nothing wrong with my post.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #82 on: September 19, 2023, 01:16:44 PM »
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  • I acknowledged that.

    You did. My "no" was meant this way: If you said, "this is not related to punishment," and I said, "no, it's not," I'd be agreeing with you. That's how I meant it.

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    There's nothing wrong with my post.

    Well, you posted here, believing it was relevant to the topic of punishment, and then said:


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    This gives us an insight into Augustine's mind - he does not shy away from harsh doctrine. It would hardly be inconsistent for him to consign infants to positive punishments.

    Forgive me if I misread, but it appears you think your citation's relevance is in supporting a view that Augustine had a "harsh doctrine" of "positive punishments" for infants.

    I think that view certainly grossly overstated, and contains a poor attribution to Augustine in the sense (taken as true by assumption) that Augustine consigned these infants to some kind of physical torment in the "fires" of hell. Looking at his actual quotes on the fate of these infants, that view goes beyond what Augustine actually said and thought - which must be based on what he said, from our non-omniscient perspective.

    I'm sorry if I read your post as an attempt to lend some support to that false view (false IMHO and for reasons discussed in this thread, and on the basis of what the saint actually said).

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.