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Author Topic: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism  (Read 2966 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2023, 02:13:44 PM »
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  • I think I've found a translation. It's  sermon 294, right? I suggest all who wish to discuss this further read it in full. I will certainly do so.

    https://wesleyscholar.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Augustine-Sermons-273-305.pdf
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline RandomFish

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #31 on: September 11, 2023, 02:44:45 PM »
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  • Here’s the second aforementioned 
    resource:


    1.16.21 (CSEL 60, 20f.)


    https://archive.org/details/corpusscriptorum60auguuoft/page/19/mode/1up?view=theater

    I will post the third shortly.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #32 on: September 11, 2023, 03:06:50 PM »
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  • Here’s the second aforementioned
    resource:


    1.16.21 (CSEL 60, 20f.)


    https://archive.org/details/corpusscriptorum60auguuoft/page/19/mode/1up?view=theater

    I will post the third shortly.

    Thanks. I think this is the translation of that:

    Quote
    Chapter 21 [XVI.]— Unbaptized Infants Damned, But Most Lightly; The Penalty of Adam's Sin, the Grace of His Body Lost.

    It may therefore be correctly affirmed, that such infants as quit the body without being baptized will be involved in the mildest condemnation of all. That person, therefore, greatly deceives both himself and others, who teaches that they will not be involved in condemnation; whereas the apostle says: Judgment from one offense to condemnation, Romans 5:16 and again a little after: By the offense of one upon all persons to condemnation. Romans 5:18 When, indeed, Adam sinned by not obeying God, then his body — although it was a natural and mortal body — lost the grace whereby it used in every part of it to be obedient to the soul. Then there arose in men affections common to the brutes which are productive of shame, and which made man ashamed of his own nakedness. Genesis 3:10 Then also, by a certain disease which was conceived in men from a suddenly injected and pestilential corruption, it was brought about that they lost that stability of life in which they were created, and, by reason of the mutations which they experienced in the stages of life, issued at last in death. However many were the years they lived in their subsequent life, yet they began to die on the day when they received the law of death, because they kept verging towards old age. For that possesses not even a moment's stability, but glides away without intermission, which by constant change perceptibly advances to an end which does not produce perfection, but utter exhaustion. Thus, then, was fulfilled what God had spoken: In the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die. Genesis 2:17 As a consequence, then, of this disobedience of the flesh and this law of sin and death, whoever is born of the flesh has need of spiritual regeneration — not only that he may reach the kingdom of God, but also that he may be freed from the damnation of sin. Hence men are on the one hand born in the flesh liable to sin and death from the first Adam, and on the other hand are born again in baptism associated with the righteousness and eternal life of the second Adam; even as it is written in the book of Ecclesiasticus: Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die. Sirach 25:24 Now whether it be said of the woman or of Adam, both statements pertain to the first man; since (as we know) the woman is of the man, and the two are one flesh. Whence also it is written: And they two shall be one flesh; wherefore, the Lord says, they are no more two, but one flesh. Matthew 19:5-6

    https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15011.htm

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #33 on: September 11, 2023, 03:18:05 PM »
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  • Quote
    But I do not say that children who die without the baptism of Christ will undergo such grievous punishment that it were better for them never to have been born, since our Lord did not say these words of any sinner you please, but only of the most base and ungodly. If we consider what He said about the Sodomites, which certainly He did not mean of them only that it will be more tolerable for one than for another in the day of judgment, 2 who can doubt that nonbaptized infants, having only original sin and no burden of personal sins, will suffer the lightest condemnation of all? I cannot define the amount and kind of their punishment, but I dare not say it were better for them never to have existed than to exist there. But you, also, who contend they are, as it were, free of any condemnation, do not wish to think about the condemnation by which you punish them by estranging from the life of God and from the kingdom of God so many images of God, and by separating them from the pious parents you so eloquently urge to procreate them. They suffer these separations unjustly, if they have no sin at all; or if justly, then they have original sin.


    The Fathers Of The Church A New Translation Volume 35 Saint Augustine Against Julian : Roy Joseph Deferrari : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive



    I believe the above is the translation of the passage cited Contra Iulianum 5.11.44 (PL 44, 809), which I already quoted on page 1. 

    This, with the replies 30 and 32, gives us 3 of the 4 passages in translation.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #34 on: September 11, 2023, 03:42:57 PM »
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  • While you're answering that, it seems my first argument was based on carelessly disregarding the context.

    However, I haven't exhausted the quote. Here's the relevant part:

    Notice two things:


    1) Augustine says the punishment has an amount and kind which he does not know. Consider now that the deprivation of the Beatific Vision is a specific kind of punishment and which has no qualifier of amount. Therefore, Augustine is not speaking of merely their being in Hell. To restate the argument: if Augustine was claiming infants are only deprived of Heaven he wouldn't have said he cannot say what amount and kind of punishment they would suffer.

    2) Augustine says: I dare not say it were better for them never to have existed than to exist there. Well, if Augustine held that the infants were in a state of perfect natural happiness, not suffering any positive punishment, then he would certainly say it was good for them to be born. However, he is not sure whether their punishment is of such a degree as to be better not to even exist.

    Marulus,

    (1) Augustine clearly believes that these infants are denied the beatific vision, and that this is a "condemnation."

    (2) Beyond that, he clearly says that he doesn't know, but that it is "the lightest condemnation of all."

    Do we agree on (1) and (2)?

    And, remember, he says he doesn't know - beyond (1) above - what the condemnation is,  but "it is the lightest of all."

    I believe St. Augustine is merely being restrained in his opinion in light of his lack of clear knowledge. Augustine held Scripture in the highest regard and would not be dogmatic about things not taught in Scripture or by the Church. By saying he would not dare say it were better for them not to be born, he is showing that restraint. Yes, he does not say they have a state of perfect natural happiness . . HE DOESN'T KNOW BEYOND (1) above,  but he wouldn't dare qualify or opine that the "penalty" was such that it were better for them not to be born. Which, I might add, were that to involve "torments" from the flames of hell, it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for him to say that.

    Indeed, as has been noted, the Church hasn't defined Limbo, or a state of natural happiness, to this day.


    Augustine is being cautious. I'm working through the first translation, the sermon, but he shows himself to be a close reader of Scripture and and the necessary inferences from it. As he argues, Scripture gives us the right and the left, heaven and hell, and is silent beyond that, and he dissects the Scriptural passages quite lucidly. So he quite reasonably concludes that, since the infants sans baptism cannot go to heaven, then there's that only other place/option. Indeed, even those supporting a Limbo of natural happiness concede that it is not in "some other middle place," but, I believe it is recognized as being on the outer regions or borders of hell.

    Love Augustine, and his manner of thinking. Very sound, and of course brilliant.

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline RandomFish

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #35 on: September 11, 2023, 04:13:21 PM »
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  • As promised, here’s the third:

    Contra Iulianum 5.11.44 (PL 44, 809).

    I will post this one in English since I am aware of a faithful translation of it -

    https://archive.org/details/fathersofthechur013910mbp

    I hope the resources I posted help move this very important discussion forward in a positive direction. 

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #36 on: September 11, 2023, 04:44:48 PM »
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  • As promised, here’s the third:

    Contra Iulianum 5.11.44 (PL 44, 809).

    I will post this one in English since I am aware of a faithful translation of it -

    https://archive.org/details/fathersofthechur013910mbp

    I hope the resources I posted help move this very important discussion forward in a positive direction.

    Thanks again. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #37 on: September 12, 2023, 07:41:32 AM »
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  • I believe the above is the translation of the passage cited Contra Iulianum 5.11.44 (PL 44, 809), which I already quoted on page 1.

    This, with the replies 30 and 32, gives us 3 of the 4 passages in translation.

    Actually, there are only 3. So we now have all 3 passages in translation I believe. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #38 on: September 12, 2023, 08:28:34 AM »
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  • I read the Latin, and the key phrases are that St. Augustine believes that there are only two possible states in eternity, the beatitude of Heaven, and then the place of ignis aeternus ("eternal fire") and damnatio cuм diabolo ("damnation with the devil") ... though their particular punishment would be extremely mild.  He simply doesn't admit of even infants who die without Baptism (i.e. those with Original but no actual sin) can be in some place where there's no suffering whatsoever, much less the perfect happiness held by St. Thomas Aquinas.

    Now, in Latin, poena mitissima, the "mildest punishment", the superlative form, "mildest" (mitissima) could be an absolute or a relative term, meaning either the mildest possible punishment anyone could possibly suffer period, or else the mildest punishment of all those in Hell.  It's hard to say precisely how severe he believed it would be from an absolute (vs. relative) standpoint, since it's the place of "eternal fire".  Did he envision a place on the outer edges where they were barely touched by the fire, or not touched by the fire directly, etc.?  I don't now.  But his main rationale is the interpretation of Sacred Scripture, in Our Lord's parables, where He judges all into two camps, either sheep or goats, on the right hand or the left, and non datur tertium, i.e., "there's no third option".

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #39 on: September 12, 2023, 08:38:57 AM »
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  • Marulus,

    (1) Augustine clearly believes that these infants are denied the beatific vision, and that this is a "condemnation."

    (2) Beyond that, he clearly says that he doesn't know, but that it is "the lightest condemnation of all."

    It's not just any condemnation, but a damnatio cuм diabolo, condemnation or damnation with the devil, and it's a place of ignis aeternus, eternal fire.

    I believe that "condemnation" you speak of (it wasn't in the Latin I looked at posted earlier), actually refers to poena, the actual suffering or affliction or torment part, and not just the condemnation.  But I'd have to find more of his Latin to be sure.

    But it's important whether the "mildest" refers to the condemnation or the punishment.  These are potentially two distinct things.  Let's say that two of my children are involved in the same act of mischief.  I ground them both for 3 weeks.  So they get the same punishment.  But I know that the older one was exerting his influence over the younger one, so I am less upset with the younger one than with the older one.  Or, another analogy, two people cause $2,000 damage to my car.  One of them did so accidentally, the other vandalized the car out of spite.  Both owe me $2,000 in damages, and that would correspond to the poena, the penalty, but I'm not upset with the individual who did it accidentally, perhaps even feel sorry for him, but I'm angry at the one who did it deliberately.  So there's a distinction between guilt and punishment.

    This distinction, BTW, is also the key to understanding Pope Pius IX's famous "invincible ignorance" passages, where he states that those not guilty of actual sin would not be afflicted with punishments, in Latin, the poenis, or penalties, but this does not necessarily mean they will be rewarded with Heaven.

    St. Gregory nαzιanzen, in rejecting Baptism of Desire, states that there are some who are not bad enough to be punished but not good enough to be glorified.  Our Lord taught that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, but that those who do not believe will be condemned.  This leaves a middle ground of those who believe but are not baptized, where they fell into neither category.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #40 on: September 12, 2023, 09:45:32 AM »
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  • It's not just any condemnation, but a damnatio cuм diabolo, condemnation or damnation with the devil, and it's a place of ignis aeternus, eternal fire.

    I believe that "condemnation" you speak of (it wasn't in the Latin I looked at posted earlier), actually refers to poena, the actual suffering or affliction or torment part, and not just the condemnation.  But I'd have to find more of his Latin to be sure.

    But it's important whether the "mildest" refers to the condemnation or the punishment.  These are potentially two distinct things.  Let's say that two of my children are involved in the same act of mischief.  I ground them both for 3 weeks.  So they get the same punishment.  But I know that the older one was exerting his influence over the younger one, so I am less upset with the younger one than with the older one.  Or, another analogy, two people cause $2,000 damage to my car.  One of them did so accidentally, the other vandalized the car out of spite.  Both owe me $2,000 in damages, and that would correspond to the poena, the penalty, but I'm not upset with the individual who did it accidentally, perhaps even feel sorry for him, but I'm angry at the one who did it deliberately.  So there's a distinction between guilt and punishment.

    This distinction, BTW, is also the key to understanding Pope Pius IX's famous "invincible ignorance" passages, where he states that those not guilty of actual sin would not be afflicted with punishments, in Latin, the poenis, or penalties, but this does not necessarily mean they will be rewarded with Heaven.

    St. Gregory nαzιanzen, in rejecting Baptism of Desire, states that there are some who are not bad enough to be punished but not good enough to be glorified.  Our Lord taught that those who believe and are baptized will be saved, but that those who do not believe will be condemned.  This leaves a middle ground of those who believe but are not baptized, where they fell into neither category.

    Lad,

    It is clear, both by Scripture, the Council of Trent, and indeed Augustine's own words, that all men are "condemned" by Adam's sin, and that this "condemnation" falls upon infants who die unbaptized, who endure the "penalty" or punishment of that condemnation, which comes by way of God's "judgment" (again, Rom. 5:16,18).

    The condemnation is the judgment; the penalty or punishment is the sentence resulting therefrom.

    St. Augustine looked at the relevant Scriptural passages, which indicate a final judgment to the "right hand or the left," to a heaven or hell. He addresses those passages in the cited Sermon 294. As I said, it is accepted by Church teaching that there is "no middle place," and that one ends up either in heaven or hell, whether that place is called "Limbo" for the infants because it is on the border or outer reach of hell or not; it's still part of the one, hell, and not the only other, heaven. Necessarily, and so Augustine quite clearly reasons.

    Augustine describes the infants as consigned to the "fires of hell" because that is how Scripture describes hell, i.e., a place of eternal flame. He does not do more than reason, a) there are two eternal resting places, heaven and hell; b) hell is Scripturally described as a place of eternal fire, and c) these infants don't go to heaven, but go to hell, the place Scripture describes as of "eternal fire." I've looked at the passages I think fairly closely, and I do not see him indicating these infants are "tormented," or undergo some punishment beyond deprivation of the beatific vision. I say again, if he says they do, let's see the passages and address them.

    What he does say, explicitly, is that the "condemnation" these infants undergo is "the lightest condemnation of all," and he says this with "no doubt" whatsoever. Here it is again:

    Quote

    But I do not say that children who die without the baptism of Christ will undergo such grievous punishment that it were better for them never to have been born, since our Lord did not say these words of any sinner you please, but only of the most base and ungodly. If we consider what He said about the Sodomites, which certainly He did not mean of them only that it will be more tolerable for one than for another in the day of judgment, 2 who can doubt that nonbaptized infants, having only original sin and no burden of personal sins, will suffer the lightest condemnation of all? I cannot define the amount and kind of their punishment, but I dare not say it were better for them never to have existed than to exist there. But you, also, who contend they are, as it were, free of any condemnation, do not wish to think about the condemnation by which you punish them by estranging from the life of God and from the kingdom of God so many images of God, and by separating them from the pious parents you so eloquently urge to procreate them. They suffer these separations unjustly, if they have no sin at all; or if justly, then they have original sin.


    The Fathers Of The Church A New Translation Volume 35 Saint Augustine Against Julian : Roy Joseph Deferrari : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

    He says there that he "cannot define the amount" by way of caution and humility, since, as I said, he doesn't know. He is, again, quite explicit about this in Sermon 294:


    Quote

    I am myself keenly aware of how profoundly problematic this question is, and I recognize that my powers are not sufficient to get to the bottom of it. Here too I like to exclaim with Paul, Oh the depths of the riches! (Rom 11:33). Unbaptized babies go to damnation; they are the apostle's words, after all: From one to condemnation (Rom 5:16).8 I cannot find a satisfactory and worthy explanation-because I can't find one, not because there isn't one. So where, in the depths, I cannot find bottom, I must take account of human weakness, not condemn divine authority. I certainly exclaim, and I'm not in the least ashamed of it, Oh the depths of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How inscrutable are his judgments, and untraceable his ways! For who has come to know the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor? Or who first gave to him, and will be repaid? Because from him, and through him, and in him are all things; to him be glory for ever and ever (Rom 11:33-36).

    So he says he doesn't know what penalty or punishment these infants suffer in "damnation" - again, he feels he must say that because of the plain Scriptural texts, the Word of God, which binds him - beyond saying, again, explicitly and clearly, it's "the lightest condemnation of all." Elsewhere he says it's the "mildest condemnation (or punishment) of all." Again I repeat: the denial of the beatific vision is a condemnation with a "penalty," as Innocent III agrees. Trent recognizes all men as "children of wrath" as a result of the sin of the first Adam, needing rebirth in the second via baptism. These infants, like it or not, are "children of wrath." This is the Scriptural revelation, confirmed by the Church in the highest expressions of its authority (Trent).

    So the contention that Augustine consigned children to the "pains or torment of hell," or indicated they endure "torture" or physical suffering, is simply based upon Augustine's acknowledging that these infants go to hell - the only place they can go, other than heaven - and noting that Scripture describes hell as a place of "eternal fire or flames." That's it. He doesn't describe any "torment" or "pains" they suffer; he says whatever they suffer, it's "the lightest condemnation of all," or the "mildest" possible punishment or condemnation; and he adds, he can't say it were better for them not to be born, despite being denied the beatific vision, which is the only "condemnation" he knows they actually receive based upon Scripture. I greatly doubt he would say he could not say it were better for them not to have been born if he believed they suffered torments of the imposition of tangible (so to say) pain in hell. 

    I say the claim that Augustine consigned these unbaptized infants to "torments" and "suffering" in hell, as if he were some grim theological reaper, is unjust. I say there are assumptions made by many in making that argument, assumptions belied by the "facts" of Augustine's actual statements and thought.  I think I've looked at all the relevant texts, and I think my position sound.

    I appreciate your discussing this without ad hominem and unneeded rhetoric, and appreciate your input, and look forward to additional thoughts, discussion of other relevant texts, etc.






    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline RandomFish

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #41 on: September 12, 2023, 02:46:35 PM »
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  • Offline RandomFish

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #42 on: September 12, 2023, 02:52:39 PM »
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  • Offline RandomFish

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    Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
    « Reply #43 on: September 12, 2023, 02:56:08 PM »
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