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Author Topic: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests  (Read 6771 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
« Reply #105 on: May 29, 2023, 04:05:33 PM »
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  • You also have to "read the tea leaves".  I can see a case where there is one, lone Trad family member, in a sea of novus ordo-ites and the Trad asks the dying person if they want a Trad priest.  The dying person says "no, I want Fr Bob from down the street."  

    At that point, it's a waste of any Trad priest's time (and also a deception, although for good intentions) to call a Trad priest down to a hospital, only for him to get turned away.

    Probably what happens more often is the Trad doesn't even ask the dying person if they want a Trad priest (because they know the answer) and calls one anyway.  The result is the same - the priest is turned way.

    If there were hundreds of priests in each state of the US, ok, no problem.  They have time.  But calling a Trad priest for an openly anti-Trad or anti-religious person, in this day and age, is a waste of time.  

    It's a different story if the dying person is open to conversation; but most aren't.  That's reality.


    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #106 on: May 29, 2023, 10:18:59 PM »
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  • You also have to "read the tea leaves".  I can see a case where there is one, lone Trad family member, in a sea of novus ordo-ites and the Trad asks the dying person if they want a Trad priest.  The dying person says "no, I want Fr Bob from down the street." 

    At that point, it's a waste of any Trad priest's time (and also a deception, although for good intentions) to call a Trad priest down to a hospital, only for him to get turned away.

    Probably what happens more often is the Trad doesn't even ask the dying person if they want a Trad priest (because they know the answer) and calls one anyway.  The result is the same - the priest is turned way.

    If there were hundreds of priests in each state of the US, ok, no problem.  They have time.  But calling a Trad priest for an openly anti-Trad or anti-religious person, in this day and age, is a waste of time. 

    It's a different story if the dying person is open to conversation; but most aren't.  That's reality.
    I am not sure that it is right to call a traditional priest in for someone who is not open to having him there...

    In the case of my father (the original post of this thread) I asked my parents if they were open to having a traditional priest come and give my father Extreme Unction. I expected them to say no (they have been against my being traditional for years) but felt that it was my duty to at least ask and give them the option.  I don't know what moved them to agree and be open to it but they were.

    It was a big deal for them to agree.  So when the SSPX just said to have a novus ordo priest go to them instead I was rather distraught.  Here my parents were finally agreeing to have traditional Sacraments through a traditional priest and the SSPX was denying it to them. 

    Everyone sharing their stories has helped me to see that this is becoming more and more of a trend and that the SSPX are becoming less and less dependable for anyone who will not serve and commit to them first above all else. 

    For me I will go with Saint Joan and say, "Dieu premier servi!" ("God first served!")



    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #107 on: May 30, 2023, 10:02:10 AM »
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  • I am not sure that it is right to call a traditional priest in for someone who is not open to having him there...

    In the case of my father (the original post of this thread) I asked my parents if they were open to having a traditional priest come and give my father Extreme Unction. I expected them to say no (they have been against my being traditional for years) but felt that it was my duty to at least ask and give them the option.  I don't know what moved them to agree and be open to it but they were.

    It was a big deal for them to agree.  So when the SSPX just said to have a novus ordo priest go to them instead I was rather distraught.  Here my parents were finally agreeing to have traditional Sacraments through a traditional priest and the SSPX was denying it to them. 

    Everyone sharing their stories has helped me to see that this is becoming more and more of a trend and that the SSPX are becoming less and less dependable for anyone who will not serve and commit to them first above all else. 

    For me I will go with Saint Joan and say, "Dieu premier servi!" ("God first served!")
    But at that point, why should it matter to a Novus Ordo adherent whether a priest offers traditional sacraments or post-Vatican II sacraments?  So far as I am aware, nobody in the Novus Ordo questions the validity or the efficacy of sacraments conferred in the old rites.  The only problem they would have, is with questions as to whether the priest has faculties or not, and in danger of death, even a Novus Ordo adherent should acknowledge that the church supplies faculties regardless.  Is there something I’m missing here?

    On the other hand, I suppose it is possible that someone with a weak grasp of sacramental theology could think, oh, no, they’re not supposed to be doing it that way anymore, it’s not legitimate, and could conflate that with sacramental invalidity.

    Offline Texana

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #108 on: May 30, 2023, 12:42:44 PM »
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  • But at that point, why should it matter to a Novus Ordo adherent whether a priest offers traditional sacraments or post-Vatican II sacraments?  So far as I am aware, nobody in the Novus Ordo questions the validity or the efficacy of sacraments conferred in the old rites.  The only problem they would have, is with questions as to whether the priest has faculties or not, and in danger of death, even a Novus Ordo adherent should acknowledge that the church supplies faculties regardless.  Is there something I’m missing here?

    On the other hand, I suppose it is possible that someone with a weak grasp of sacramental theology could think, oh, no, they’re not supposed to be doing it that way anymore, it’s not legitimate, and could conflate that with sacramental invalidity.
    Dear SimpleMan,

    You are missing quite a lot here!  It is called "God's grace upon a soul"!  After many prayers and deeds in this family's life, when it got down to the reality of the gravity of possible death, a Catholic daughter gave her mother and father the best gift she could give to them---true sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church through a true priest of the Roman Catholic Church.  I pray that I will be blessed in that most important way when that time comes for me and my family members.  

    Perhaps you have never personally been in the situation of a dear family member's imminent death.  Perhaps all of your family routinely receives the sacraments from a priest ordained by a bishop who definitely, without any positive doubt, has been consecrated in the Latin rite of the Roman Catholic Church and is in the line of Apostolic Succession.  I sincerely hope that is the case.  Please have some compassion for those of us who are not in that situation.  Snarky comments about a person "with a weak grasp of sacramental theology" do not contribute to such a serious matter.

    Remember, it is all about the salvation of souls.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #109 on: May 30, 2023, 01:41:49 PM »
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  • Quote
    Snarky comments about a person "with a weak grasp of sacramental theology" do not contribute to such a serious matter.
    He wasn't being snarky; you missed his point.


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #110 on: May 30, 2023, 02:42:21 PM »
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  • Dear SimpleMan,

    You are missing quite a lot here!  It is called "God's grace upon a soul"!  After many prayers and deeds in this family's life, when it got down to the reality of the gravity of possible death, a Catholic daughter gave her mother and father the best gift she could give to them---true sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church through a true priest of the Roman Catholic Church.  I pray that I will be blessed in that most important way when that time comes for me and my family members. 

    Perhaps you have never personally been in the situation of a dear family member's imminent death.  Perhaps all of your family routinely receives the sacraments from a priest ordained by a bishop who definitely, without any positive doubt, has been consecrated in the Latin rite of the Roman Catholic Church and is in the line of Apostolic Succession.  I sincerely hope that is the case.  Please have some compassion for those of us who are not in that situation.  Snarky comments about a person "with a weak grasp of sacramental theology" do not contribute to such a serious matter.

    Remember, it is all about the salvation of souls.
    I have indeed been in that situation, with my father.  For several reasons, he was unable to receive Extreme Unction.  He would have had no issue whatsoever with receiving from a traditional priest, in fact, he was basically a sedevacantist, though he didn't have the theological underpinnings to be able to construct an argument for it, he just said "that man's no Pope".

    The comment wasn't snarky.  I was simply referring to the fact that people who are uneducated in the Faith, or who simply can't understand certain distinctions, would not understand the difference between liciety and validity, would never have heard of ecclesia supplet, and would uninformedly reason something like "Vatican II changed all that stuff, and it's not supposed to be in Latin anymore (Latin versus vernacular is all that many people understand), that priest is using old prayers that aren't valid anymore", not understanding the difference between liciety and validity, nor understanding what makes a sacrament valid or invalid.  They could further reason that "schismatic [sic] confessions aren't valid, and neither are schismatic [sic] Last Rites", or WRT the Eucharist, "the Church doesn't allow the old Mass anymore, least of all celebrated by schismatics [again, sic], so that means it's not a valid Mass".  If pressed to say "do you mean it's not the Body and Blood of Christ", they might well respond "I dunno, I just know it's not a valid Mass, those guys aren't Catholics".  Not everyone knows what "valid" means WRT sacraments.

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #111 on: May 30, 2023, 02:43:50 PM »
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  • He wasn't being snarky; you missed his point.
    Thank you, please see my previous post.

    Online Soubirous

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #112 on: May 30, 2023, 03:01:34 PM »
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  • But at that point, why should it matter to a Novus Ordo adherent whether a priest offers traditional sacraments or post-Vatican II sacraments?  So far as I am aware, nobody in the Novus Ordo questions the validity or the efficacy of sacraments conferred in the old rites.  The only problem they would have, is with questions as to whether the priest has faculties or not, and in danger of death, even a Novus Ordo adherent should acknowledge that the church supplies faculties regardless.  Is there something I’m missing here?

    On the other hand, I suppose it is possible that someone with a weak grasp of sacramental theology could think, oh, no, they’re not supposed to be doing it that way anymore, it’s not legitimate, and could conflate that with sacramental invalidity.

    Traditional vs. post-VII is one thing, but individual NOM priests tend to be laxer about adhering even to those already-weakened rules as to sacramental form and matter, and not just with regard to Last Rites.

    As to that "weak grasp of", (not snark, all good) yes, laity should try to understand sacramental theology as best they can, but it's up to the priest to get it right. A family member shouldn't have to stand there and witness something slipshod and then worry about it after it's too late.
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus


    Offline Texana

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #113 on: May 30, 2023, 04:37:56 PM »
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  • I have indeed been in that situation, with my father.  For several reasons, he was unable to receive Extreme Unction.  He would have had no issue whatsoever with receiving from a traditional priest, in fact, he was basically a sedevacantist, though he didn't have the theological underpinnings to be able to construct an argument for it, he just said "that man's no Pope".

    The comment wasn't snarky.  I was simply referring to the fact that people who are uneducated in the Faith, or who simply can't understand certain distinctions, would not understand the difference between liciety and validity, would never have heard of ecclesia supplet, and would uninformedly reason something like "Vatican II changed all that stuff, and it's not supposed to be in Latin anymore (Latin versus vernacular is all that many people understand), that priest is using old prayers that aren't valid anymore", not understanding the difference between liciety and validity, nor understanding what makes a sacrament valid or invalid.  They could further reason that "schismatic [sic] confessions aren't valid, and neither are schismatic [sic] Last Rites", or WRT the Eucharist, "the Church doesn't allow the old Mass anymore, least of all celebrated by schismatics [again, sic], so that means it's not a valid Mass".  If pressed to say "do you mean it's not the Body and Blood of Christ", they might well respond "I dunno, I just know it's not a valid Mass, those guys aren't Catholics".  Not everyone knows what "valid" means WRT sacraments.
    Dear SimpleMan,
    I am truly sorry about your father.  Please accept my apology for misinterpreting your comments in regards to the father of AMDGJMJ.

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #114 on: May 30, 2023, 05:38:47 PM »
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  • Dear SimpleMan,
    I am truly sorry about your father.  Please accept my apology for misinterpreting your comments in regards to the father of AMDGJMJ.
    It's all good.  In dealing with the pandemic theological ignorance among everyday Catholics nowadays, it is entirely possible for someone with knowledge unintentionally to come across as elitist or snobbish.  

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #115 on: May 31, 2023, 11:25:28 AM »
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  • But at that point, why should it matter to a Novus Ordo adherent whether a priest offers traditional sacraments or post-Vatican II sacraments?  So far as I am aware, nobody in the Novus Ordo questions the validity or the efficacy of sacraments conferred in the old rites.  The only problem they would have, is with questions as to whether the priest has faculties or not, and in danger of death, even a Novus Ordo adherent should acknowledge that the church supplies faculties regardless.  Is there something I’m missing here?

    On the other hand, I suppose it is possible that someone with a weak grasp of sacramental theology could think, oh, no, they’re not supposed to be doing it that way anymore, it’s not legitimate, and could conflate that with sacramental invalidity.
    Good points.  In general I agree with you about people who go to the novus ordo.  My family fall along more of the exceptional case you mentioned on the bottom. 

    They are super conservative novus ordo Catholics.  So, I think that is why my becoming traditional has been hard for them to understand.  They basically think that being traditional is similar to a being part of a Protestant split-off from the Church.

    I don't think that they question the validity of our priests, just as they don't question the validity of the Eastern Orthodox.  In their minds it is more about the "unlawfulness" of being against and/or split from the "Pope".  Though at the same time they themselves are traditional enough to say "We are more Catholic than the Pope".  

    When my husband and I got married we didn't know until about a month or two before our wedding if any of my family would be there because in their minds we were being married "outside the Church".  They ended up getting a "dispensation" from their Bishop.  If was a crazy mess but in the end God helped everything to go smoother than we could have expected.

    All of that being said...  With there being local novus ordo priests in the area and my family's past qualms about having anything to do with traditional priests.  I figured that they would probably refuse to see a traditional Catholic priest for Extreme Unction and in that case I figured that it would have not been right to ask a traditional priest to visit.  That was all I meant.  😅


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    Offline songbird

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #116 on: May 31, 2023, 03:48:59 PM »
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  • Does your dad plan to be buried or cremation?  If cremation, then trad priest will not give extreme unction.

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #117 on: June 01, 2023, 06:13:42 AM »
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  • Does your dad plan to be buried or cremation?  If cremation, then trad priest will not give extreme unction.
    My parents are against cremation.  I know this because they were very disturbed when my grandmother died and was cremated and they were talking about making sure to put in their will that they did not want this.  They are as conservative as you can be in the novus ordo without being full traditional Catholics.  

    My mother even wears dresses or skirts all the time.  Which is more than many traditional women do from the SSPX...  

    I pray to God that they may make the final jump one day and become traditional all the way.:pray:
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

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    Offline moneil

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #118 on: June 01, 2023, 10:31:11 AM »
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  • My parents are against cremation.  I know this because they were very disturbed when my grandmother died and was cremated and they were talking about making sure to put in their will that they did not want this.  

    A comment from the former dairy farmer now working at a funeral home ...

    The term "will" is sometimes used generically to include "final wishes", but the docuмent "last will and testament" is almost never read or referenced until several days, or even weeks, after the funeral.  It is not the place to record one's funeral wishes.

    The best way to be sure that one's death care wishes are properly carried out is to preplan your arrangements at the funeral home of one's choice and pay for it.  Most funeral homes have a means (typically a life insurance policy or a trust account) to accept preneed payments over time (interest free).  Once the arrangements one has selected (service package, casket, incidentals) have been fully paid for usually their cost is frozen at that point in time.  The same should be done for cemetery property, the opening and closing, and the marker.  These set aside assets are shielded from the spend down requirement if one has to use medicaid (not to be confused with medicare) in their final years.

    If one's final care is not prearranged, then state law (of which there can be 50 different variations) determines who gets to make the decisions, because these things need to be dealt with in a timely manner.  Often a "power of attorney" docuмent or guardianship expires on the death of the person who granted the "power of attorney" to someone.  In WA where I live it is possible sign a docuмent designating a specific individual or individuals to have the authority to make someone's final arrangements which supersedes the authority of relatives designated by state law.  That person needs to agree to accept the responsibility, and the matter of funding needs to be determined.

    A final matter to consider:  People sometimes die while traveling, or an elderly parent may move to be closer to one of their adult children but when the time comes they want to be taken "back home" to be buried next to their spouse.  Flying casketed remains across the country is expensive, and this is when cremation is sometimes chosen, though that would not have been the preferred choice.  I believe that there are insurance policies that can cover the extra cost of transporting someone back home if they die while traveling, the funeral home where the pre-arrangements are made would know.  Otherwise, if someone moves away from where they wish to be buried when the time comes, that extra cost needs to be provided for.  We had a case once where a gentleman died back east (Virginia I think) and his funeral and burial were to be in eastern WA.  He was embalmed but no final prep and dressing yet, and in a combo air tray (a cardboard shipping container for human remains not in a casket).  His daughter and son-in-law drove him cross country nonstop in a u-haul van.  The daughter had been a deputy coroner, so she was comfortable with it all and knew what to do.  An important aspect is to have the proper paperwork completed and traveling with the deceased, it is usually frowned upon to be driving around with a dead body and not have paperwork.

    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #119 on: June 01, 2023, 12:29:42 PM »
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  • You had some interesting professors during those years. Where is THAT professor, now??? Unfortunately, that is the human element in any society, but they were certainly undermining the position of the Society of which they were members. Liberals will always be there, it is a question of superiors being vigilant to weed them out before they can do too much damage. As you know, there is a litany of defections from the SSPX from the day of its establishment, to the left of Conciliarism and to the right of Sedevacantism. Which way did you go again???!!!!
    I had two professors actually tell me not to say that the NO Mass is a sacrilege.  One left the SSPX and the other is still there. 
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
    PO Box 17248
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    Louisville, Ky. 40217; email:letsgobryan@protonmail.com
    website: www.orestesbrownson.org.