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Author Topic: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests  (Read 9553 times)

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Offline DustyActual

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Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2023, 07:42:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 24, 2023, 04:28:13 PM
    I know this to be untrue, as I was at the seminary when various NO priests arrived to receive conditional ordination simply by their request.  There was no investigation.  One priest said he had no doubts about his orders but said he wanted to get conditionally ordained to put the faithful at his chapel at ease (since many of them did have doubts).  No investigation was done for those cases about which I have first-hand knowledge from my time at STAS.
    So are you saying that the SSPX practice went from conditionally re-ordaining novus ordo priests who requested it, to not or rarely conditionally re-ordaining novus ordo priests who request?
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    Offline cath4ever

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #46 on: May 24, 2023, 09:29:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: josefamenendez on May 24, 2023, 06:47:52 PM
    The SSPX priests defer to the Novus Ordo and will not step on any feet and cross NO jurisdictional boundaries, as if the "anointing" by the doubtfully ordained NO priest is an acceptable replacement or something. Not the same SSPX I used to know.
    What a ridiculous statement. SSPX Priests all over the place regularly make sick calls and give Extreme Unction to those in need of it. Sure, in this thread there are 2 cases where SSPX Priests supposedly did not go to give Extreme Unction when they could have, yet in at least one of these instances the person involved:

    1) Wasn't a parishioner of the Priest in question

    2) Wasn't even a traditional Catholic

    3) Didn't personally request a visit from a Priest at all, from a traditional Priest in particular, or even more this SSPX Priest specifically

    4) If the OP of this incident is full and complete, the person showed no signs of repentance, nor of a desire to receive Extreme Unction from ANYONE, let alone this particular SSPX Priest

    Others in this thread have said the SSPX Priest in question had a duty in charity to this person. My answer to that: think about the number of people on whatever road you live on. How many of those people would fit the four descriptives I just listed? Probably everyone on your road except you and your family. Does any random SSPX Priest have some obligation in charity to everyone living on your road then? To everyone in the obituary column of your local newspaper? To every resident of the nearest nursing home?

    The SSPX won't cross jurisdictional boundaries? Bishop Fellay just consecrated a large church in Mexico with no regard whatsoever to the "jurisdictional boundary" of the Novus Ordo Ordinary of the place. Read the public statement of the Novus Ordo Archbishop of Puebla if you don't believe me. Ask the Novus Ordo Archbishop of Puebla if he feels his feet got stepped on.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #47 on: May 25, 2023, 12:05:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: DustyActual on May 24, 2023, 07:42:29 PM
    So are you saying that the SSPX practice went from conditionally re-ordaining novus ordo priests who requested it, to not or rarely conditionally re-ordaining novus ordo priests who request?

    What I'm saying is that I am personally aware of several cases from the late 1980s and early 1990s where no "investigation" was done before performing conditional ordinations.
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #48 on: May 25, 2023, 12:23:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 24, 2023, 07:12:37 AM
    Was this a younger-generation priest, ordained, say within the last 15 years or so?  I've noticed a disgraceful lack of zeal for souls among many of them.  They are more concerned about organizing activities than in saving souls.
    About 15 years out I would say, yes.  
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #49 on: May 25, 2023, 01:11:35 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on May 24, 2023, 09:19:34 AM
    I do not agree. If that seems too legalistic, then so be it.
    The Church wants souls to go to Heaven, Meg, not Hell. That is the Supreme Law of the Church. There is absolutely no law that trumps it. The whole of the Church's law is geared towards this end, and if ever there is a situation where it would not serve this end, it ought not to be followed. In cases of necessity, every priest has jurisdiction. The Church even wants a non-Catholic minister to come to the rescue in such cases if no Catholic minister can be found.  
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #50 on: May 25, 2023, 01:24:28 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on May 24, 2023, 04:29:35 PM
    And the Resistance is likely to split after +W goes to his eternal reward, so I place no hope in them at all anymore.
    "I place no hope in them at all". Really? So where do you place your hope, Meg?
    If we are with the Resistance, is it not because we have judged that to be the truly Catholic position?
    Of course there will be continued break-aways from the Resistance, that is the history of the true religion. The Catholic Church from its foundation has had how many tens of thousands of sects split off? Same for the SSPX - hardly a year has passed since its foundation that there have not been defections. In any institution where human beings are involved there will always be error splitting away from truth, it is inevitable. Fr Pfieffer wasn't the first, and he won't be the last.
    So keep up your hopes! God will never abandon His truth, and He will never abandon us unless we first abandon Him.

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    Offline Durango77

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #51 on: May 25, 2023, 01:36:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: cath4ever on May 23, 2023, 05:37:37 PM
    I'm sorry, but traditional Priests can't simply drop whatever they're doing for their own chapel(s) and parishioners to go visit sick or dying people who:

    1) aren't their parishioners
    2) aren't even traditional
    3) aren't in the immediate area

    and

    4) didn't personally ask for them in the first place.

    It would be great if they could visit everybody, but there are roughly 100 SSPX Priests in the United States, and the United States is a very big country.

    That might seem harsh, but that's reality. Please give your Priests a break.
    Wow, just wow.  
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    Offline trento

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #52 on: May 25, 2023, 04:42:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 24, 2023, 03:23:44 PM
    Well, we have Archbishop Lefebvre writing at one point that nearly all NO Sacraments can be presumed doubtful.  So the position of SSPX has clearly loosened regarding the validity of NO Sacraments.  Sean has a lot of evidence to back that up.

    Fr. Jahir of the FBMV (aligned with the Resistance in Brazil) was also not conditionally ordained even though he was ordained in the New Rite. I don't know why is this an issue now brought up by certain factions in the Resistance when the Resistance has not been consistent on this matter themselves. As far as I personally know, conditional ordinations were still done by in the SSPX in the mid 2000s.
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #53 on: May 25, 2023, 05:23:28 AM »
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    • I think if you are a legitimate traditional priest, and a Catholic ( any Catholic) calls for extreme Unction, you'd better have a damn good reason before God and man for not showing up and not arranging for another priest ( NOT NO) who will.
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    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #54 on: May 25, 2023, 06:01:25 AM »
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    • Update: Not only did the SSPX suggest a novus ordo priest but when I refused to arrange for the novus ordo priest to visit my father the SSPX apparently decided that they would contact him anyways without our asking or my father agreeing to it.  :facepalm:

    He just showed up at the hospital unannounced.  He was two days late.  Father Waters had already been there and my father was already doing better.  I wonder what he thought of that and if he reported it back to the SSPX...  :popcorn:
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #55 on: May 25, 2023, 06:05:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: trento on May 25, 2023, 04:42:40 AM
    Fr. Jahir of the FBMV (aligned with the Resistance in Brazil) was also not conditionally ordained even though he was ordained in the New Rite. I don't know why is this an issue now brought up by certain factions in the Resistance when the Resistance has not been consistent on this matter themselves. As far as I personally know, conditional ordinations were still done by in the SSPX in the mid 2000s.
    The monastery of Fr Jahir was aligned with the SSPX in pre-Resistance times. I don't know the story of Fr Jahir's ordination.
    But of course, Archbishop Lefebvre considered the new rite of priestly ordination valid in itself.
    Doubts as to validity arose because of vernacular translations, adaptations, revolutionising the theology of the priesthood etc, such that it became increasingly difficult over time to remove that doubt. Hence, a readiness on the part of the old SSPX to conditionally ordain. One can see clearly from ABL's 'letter to Mr Wilson' what his position was.
    The problem with the SSPX now is that it seems to be increasingly favouring validity, even presuming validity. I have encountered this attitude myself with SSPX priests on more than one occasion. A simple blanket statement 'they're valid priests'. Period!
    I don't think there is inconsistency in the Resistance, but rather a real quasi-official change of attitude/position in the SSPX.
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #56 on: May 25, 2023, 06:08:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: AMDGJMJ on May 25, 2023, 06:01:25 AM
    Update: Not only did the SSPX suggest a novus ordo priest but when I refused to arrange for the novus ordo priest to visit my father the SSPX apparently decided that they would contact him anyways without our asking or my father agreeing to it.  :facepalm:

    He was two days late.  Father Waters had already been there and my father was already doing better.  I wonder what he thought of that and if he reported it back to the SSPX...  :popcorn:I 
    What??? Was it a case of they knew this priest really well, knew for certain his ordination was valid, and knew he used the old rite and valid oils for Confirmation??? Not likely. I am just so disappointed hearing this coming from Fr MacPherson...
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    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #57 on: May 25, 2023, 06:17:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on May 25, 2023, 06:08:18 AM
    What??? Was it a case of they knew this priest really well, knew for certain his ordination was valid, and knew he used the old rite and valid oils for Confirmation??? Not likely. I am just so disappointed hearing this coming from Fr MacPherson...
    Yeah...  :facepalm:

    Father MacPherson said that they were on good terms with this novus ordo priest, Father Lundberg, and that he offered the Latin Mass at his parish and would use the Old Rite.

    Interestingly...  The local Bishop has specifically said that any traditional Sacraments like Baptism and Extreme Unction are not allowed for his diocesan priests to do in our diocese.

    So, that begs the question...  Would he have specifically gone against his bishop or actually have used the novus ordo "Anointing of the Sick" when he went?

    I know a lady whose sister went to college with Fr. Lundberg.  She says that he is a nice man but that his ordination is definitely not certainly valid.

    I have also heard of Fr. Lundberg before...  So, as soon as I heard his name I knew who Father MacPherson was talking about and flatly refused to have him visit my father. 

    I told Father MacPherson we could just talk to Father Gee if we wanted to go that route since he had been my father's parish priest before he stopped going.  Apparently Father MacPherson didn't like that...  Father Gee causes too much tension for the SSPX.  😅



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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #58 on: May 25, 2023, 06:23:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: AMDGJMJ on May 25, 2023, 06:17:23 AM
    Yeah...  :facepalm:

    Father MacPherson said that they were on good terms with this novus ordo priest, Father Lundberg, and that he offered the Latin Mass at his parish and would use the Old Rite.
     
    Interestingly...  The local Bishop has specifically said that any traditional Sacraments like Baptism and Extreme Unction are not allowed for his diocesan priests to do in our diocese.
     
    So, that begs the question...  Would he have specifically gone against his bishop or actually have used the novus ordo "Anointing of the Sick" when he went?

    I know a lady whose sister went to college with Fr. Lundberg.  She says that he is a nice man but that his ordination is definitely not certainly valid.
    Thanks for the update. Really sad to hear the way our beloved SSPX is heading. I hope your Father is doing better.
    I was a bit distracted when I wrote my posts above. With the old SSPX (and the Resistance) the presumption with new orders was against validity until all doubt removed by investigation. With the neo-SSPX there are just too many examples showing that the presumption is now in favour of validity...
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    Offline CathSarto

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    Re: SSPX Referrals for novus ordo priests
    « Reply #59 on: May 25, 2023, 06:23:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: AMDGJMJ on May 25, 2023, 06:17:23 AM
    Yeah...  :facepalm:

    Father MacPherson said that they were on good terms with this novus ordo priest, Father Lundberg, and that he offered the Latin Mass at his parish and would use the Old Rite.
     
    Interestingly...  The local Bishop has specifically said that any traditional Sacraments like Baptism and Extreme Unction are not allowed for his diocesan priests to do in our diocese.
     
    So, that begs the question...  Would he have specifically gone against his bishop or actually have used the novus ordo "Anointing of the Sick" when he went?

    I know a lady whose sister went to college with Fr. Lundberg.  She says that he is a nice man but that his ordination is definitely not certainly valid.
    Fr. Lundberg has Opus Dei connections. The SSPX are on good terms with the priests who are leading the charge against the SSPX in the diocese of Arlington? These priests who are supposedly "obedient" to their bishop? I'm not sure what is going on here but it doesn't sit well with me. 
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