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Offline Geremia

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Spiritual pleasures ⋙ carnal pleasures.
« on: May 16, 2019, 10:34:06 AM »
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  • Intellectual and especially pleasures are greater than carnal/bodily pleasures, St. Thomas shows in Ia IIae, q.31, a.5. This explains what attracts the religious to leave the world by taking vows of poverty and chastity.

    Fr. Garrigou.-Lagrange, O.P.'s Life Everlasting (pt. 1, §3 "Soul Immensity and Beatific Vision"):
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    Following St. Gregory the Great, St. Thomas writes: Temporal goods appear desirable when we do not have them; but when we do have them, we see their poverty, which cannot meet our desire and which therefore produces disillusion, lassitude, and often repugnance. In spiritual goods the inverse is true. They do not seem desirable to those who do not have them and who desire especially sensible good. But the more we possess them the more we know their value and the more we love them.⁴ For the same reason, material goods, the same house, the same field, cannot belong simultaneously and integrally to many persons. Spiritual goods, on the contrary, one and the same truth, one and the same virtue, can belong simultaneously and completely to all. And the more perfectly we possess these goods, the better we can communicate them to others.⁵ This is especially true of the sovereign good.  

    See also SCG III qq. 26-44, where he addresses questions like "That human felicity does not consist in pleasures of the flesh," "That ultimate felicity does not lie in the act of prudence," "That felicity does not consist in the operation of art," ending with (q. 37) "That the ultimate felicity of man consists in the contemplation of God." But he goes further, arguing "That human felicity does not consist in the knowledge of God gained through demonstration" and even that "Human felicity does not [even] consist in the knowledge of God which is through faith"!
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Spiritual pleasures ⋙ carnal pleasures.
    « Reply #1 on: May 16, 2019, 12:10:52 PM »
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  • Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange was a 20th century teacher of John Paul II and many other Vatican II modernists.

    By their fruits you shall know them.

    I'd go with another teacher from a better time, there's 19 centuries and innumerable saints to choose from.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Spiritual pleasures ⋙ carnal pleasures.
    « Reply #2 on: May 16, 2019, 12:18:18 PM »
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  • correction:
    Intellectual and especially spiritual pleasures are greater than carnal/bodily pleasures, St. Thomas shows in Ia IIae, q.31, a.5.
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Spiritual pleasures ⋙ carnal pleasures.
    « Reply #3 on: May 16, 2019, 12:20:03 PM »
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  • Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange was a 20th century teacher of John Paul II and many other Vatican II modernists.
    So? One, like St. Thomas Aquinas, can learn truths even from Jews and Muslims.
    Do you disagree with what Fr. G.-L. wrote here?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Spiritual pleasures ⋙ carnal pleasures.
    « Reply #4 on: May 16, 2019, 12:50:11 PM »
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  • Quote
    Intellectual and especially spiritual pleasures are greater than carnal/bodily pleasures, St. Thomas shows in Ia IIae, q.31, a.5.
    Drinking some specific belgium beer is a holy experience, since it's made by monks.  (j/k).


    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Spiritual pleasures ⋙ carnal pleasures.
    « Reply #5 on: May 16, 2019, 03:34:05 PM »
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  • Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange was a 20th century teacher of John Paul II and many other Vatican II modernists.

    By their fruits you shall know them.

    I'd go with another teacher from a better time, there's 19 centuries and innumerable saints to choose from.
    What here do you object to??
    Humble thy spirit very much: for the vengeance on the flesh of the ungodly is fire and worms. - Ecclesiasticus 7:18

    Offline Motorede

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    Re: Spiritual pleasures ⋙ carnal pleasures.
    « Reply #6 on: May 16, 2019, 03:34:30 PM »
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  • Drinking some specific belgium beer is a holy experience, since it's made by monks.  (j/k).
    Ah! But what if those monks are not holy?

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Spiritual pleasures ⋙ carnal pleasures.
    « Reply #7 on: May 16, 2019, 04:17:56 PM »
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  • So? One, like St. Thomas Aquinas, can learn truths even from Jews and Muslims.
    Do you disagree with what Fr. G.-L. wrote here?
    You can say the same about JPII or B16. 

    Rat poison is 99% nutritious food.

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Spiritual pleasures ⋙ carnal pleasures.
    « Reply #8 on: May 16, 2019, 04:39:18 PM »
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  • Quote
    Ah! But what if those monks are not holy?
    When God works the miracle of changing yeast, sugar and grains into gourmet alcohol, this is a holy transformation.  ;)

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Spiritual pleasures ⋙ carnal pleasures.
    « Reply #9 on: May 16, 2019, 04:48:39 PM »
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  • Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange was a 20th century teacher of John Paul II and many other Vatican II modernists.

    By their fruits you shall know them.

    I'd go with another teacher from a better time, there's 19 centuries and innumerable saints to choose from.

    Garrigou-Lagrange is a completely orthodox, non-Modernist theologian.

    Now you're going to throw out anyone who taught someone who later lost the Faith and/or became a Modernist?

    Better throw out St. Thomas Aquinas himself, too!

    Give me a break. That's not what Our Lord meant by "judge a tree by its fruits". You can't just use private interpretation on Scripture like that, and ignore all other Catholic principles.
    For example, the Catholic Church also teaches: Any teaching is received according to the manner of the receiver."  That explains how a good teacher (Garrigou-Lagrange) can teach someone who ends up Modernist (JP2).

    I could point to all kinds of rotten graduates of Catholic schools. That doesn't mean the Catholic Church is a "bad tree".

    JP2 was a bad pupil. Garrigou-Lagrange was a spotless teacher.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Spiritual pleasures ⋙ carnal pleasures.
    « Reply #10 on: May 16, 2019, 04:51:47 PM »
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  • Now I understand why some hate the 1962 Missale. It's the same emotional "cooties" kind of thinking. Throw the baby out with the bathwater! The baby pooped in the tub; better throw out the water, the bathtub, and the baby himself!

    Not TOO emotional, are you?

    Who needs reason and logic when you can have spiritual cooties, feelings, and guilt by association?
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    Offline Motorede

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    Re: Spiritual pleasures ⋙ carnal pleasures.
    « Reply #11 on: May 16, 2019, 04:55:12 PM »
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  • When God works the miracle of changing yeast, sugar and grains into gourmet alcohol, this is a holy transformation.  ;)
    i concede. Norm knew! Cheers.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Spiritual pleasures ⋙ carnal pleasures.
    « Reply #12 on: May 16, 2019, 04:59:46 PM »
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  • Garrigou-Lagrange is a completely orthodox, non-Modernist theologian.
    Those that have eyes to see, let them see. 


    Quote
    Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange was a 20th century teacher of John Paul II and many other Vatican II modernists.

    By their fruits you shall know them.

    I'd go with another teacher from a better time, there's 19 centuries and innumerable saints to choose from.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline X

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    Re: Spiritual pleasures ⋙ carnal pleasures.
    « Reply #13 on: May 16, 2019, 06:23:04 PM »
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  • Lagrange was a mixed bag, in my opinion:

    Perfectly orthodox in strictly doctrinal works, but sometimes “questionable” in exegesis and liturgical matters.

    Offline obscurus

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    Re: Spiritual pleasures ⋙ carnal pleasures.
    « Reply #14 on: May 16, 2019, 08:46:42 PM »
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  • Lagrange was a mixed bag, in my opinion:

    Perfectly orthodox in strictly doctrinal works, but sometimes “questionable” in exegesis and liturgical matters.
    In what way was he "questionable" on liturgical matters specifically? 

     

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