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Author Topic: Singing at Traditional Latin Mass?  (Read 4913 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Singing at Traditional Latin Mass?
« on: January 12, 2014, 09:51:14 AM »
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  • I am watching an online latin mass and there is singing.  Is this something that is typical in a Latin Mass?  I thought Latin Masses are quiet (or is this the difference between an low and high mass?)  I find it very distracting (especially when the singing is much to be desired....reminds me of singing at the NO).
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Mabel

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    Singing at Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #1 on: January 12, 2014, 11:13:44 AM »
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  • There are a lot of rubrics and variations for both low and high mass regarding singing.
    Some situations just depend on the resources. I'm not a music person, so I don't know what they are.


    Generally, daily masses are pretty quiet.


    Offline soulguard

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    Singing at Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #2 on: January 12, 2014, 11:34:18 AM »
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  • A high mass can also be a sung high mass.

    The laity should also sing the credo and not leave it unsaid.

    "The man who sings prays twice" - St Augustine

    Offline parentsfortruth

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    Singing at Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #3 on: January 12, 2014, 11:46:25 AM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    I am watching an online latin mass and there is singing.  Is this something that is typical in a Latin Mass?  I thought Latin Masses are quiet (or is this the difference between an low and high mass?)  I find it very distracting (especially when the singing is much to be desired....reminds me of singing at the NO).


    High Masses are obviously going to have singing. Low Masses, strictly speaking, are not supposed to have music in them, aside from an organ at certain points in the Mass.

    If there is any singing at a Low Mass, strictly speaking, it's to occur before the Mass begins (a processional hymn) and after Mass (a recessional hymn.)
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Offline SoldierOfChrist

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    Singing at Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #4 on: January 12, 2014, 12:15:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    I am watching an online latin mass and there is singing.  Is this something that is typical in a Latin Mass?  I thought Latin Masses are quiet (or is this the difference between an low and high mass?)  I find it very distracting (especially when the singing is much to be desired....reminds me of singing at the NO).


    The choir is a regular part of the traditional Mass.  The hymns sung are holy and reverent, and are directed toward God, as opposed to the hymns sung at the novus ordo, which are often directed at man.  The protestant/NO hymns are often about God, whilst the traditional hymns are prayers to God, often taken directly out of the Missal.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Singing at Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #5 on: January 12, 2014, 01:36:17 PM »
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  • OK, thanks.  I honestly didn't know.  It's clear I much prefer quiet these days.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Singing at Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #6 on: January 12, 2014, 01:47:05 PM »
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  • Were they in English?  Or Latin?  High Mass will have singing in Latin throughout (Beginning with the Asperges, the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei and all propers before the offertory).  Both low and high mass may have a processional and recessional hymn sung in English, though neither of these are actually "part" of the mass.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Singing at Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #7 on: January 12, 2014, 01:54:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Were they in English?  Or Latin?  High Mass will have singing in Latin throughout (Beginning with the Asperges, the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei and all propers before the offertory).  Both low and high mass may have a processional and recessional hymn sung in English, though neither of these are actually "part" of the mass.


    The first hymn may have been the processional but it continued on into the actual prayers of the priest.  Then there was another hymn somewhere in the middle (I think after the homily) as well as a recessional.

    It definitely was not High Mass singing in Latin (if I am remembering correctly).  They were "hymns".

    All in all, I was completely distracted by it and had to mute it.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Matto

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    Singing at Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #8 on: January 12, 2014, 02:36:00 PM »
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  • I go to a low Mass, but there is one man who came from the indult who sings during the Mass.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline parentsfortruth

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    Singing at Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #9 on: January 12, 2014, 04:21:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    I go to a low Mass, but there is one man who came from the indult who sings during the Mass.


    Soloists were not really ever permitted... except for someone called a cantor. He would start out the chant's first line, and the choir would continue.
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Offline Mabel

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    Singing at Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #10 on: January 12, 2014, 05:06:20 PM »
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  • Some traditional chapels have a reputation for really bad choirs.



    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Singing at Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #11 on: January 13, 2014, 03:22:20 AM »
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  • .

    What a fascinating thread!  


    I can understand why there is so much confusion.


    According to pre-Vat.II rubrics, High Mass is always sung, and Low Mass is never sung.   That's the SIMPLE story.


    Since Vat.II, we've been in a war zone, and during war, some things get changed.  That's because a lot of stuff is getting destroyed and a lot of people are doing WITHOUT.  


    What has developed in Canonized Traditional Latin Masses since the wreckovation of Vat.II, is that Low Mass (which is sometimes the only Mass a person ever gets to attend in a lifetime these days) might have a few hymns, that is, on Sunday and perhaps Holy Days (of obligation or not -- but in these days, a "Holy Day" might be a WEEKDAY that happens to be the only day during three months when you get to have ANY Mass!).  Generally, there is a Recessional Hymn, which happens after Mass is over, and there might be some organ music during the Mass.  The choir can consist of several voices, men and/or women, or it might consist of very few voices.  It might consist of ONE voice.  Allow me to explain!

    Don't be shocked when I tell you that one experienced singer can provide the ambiance and texture that would seem to be only possible with several voices, and not unrelatedly, a very well-coordinated and artful small group of two or three men OR women can sound like one voice.  In Latin the phrase is "una voce."  That has nothing to do with the Indult organization by the same name!  


    In case you don't believe me, I'll say it again:

    One experienced singer can provide the ambiance and texture that would seem to be only possible with several voices, and conversely, a very well-coordinated and artful small group of two or three men OR women can sound as if they must be truly one voice.  

    By extension, it is quite possible for a small group of two or three gentlemen and two or three ladies to sound as if they are one man and one woman.

    I know this to be a fact, because I hear these comments at least a dozen times a year.  So I'm not making it up.  

    When there is only one singer and his or her head is as big as a beach ball because he thinks his opera training makes him an expert, he should not be singing in Church at all, IMHO.  He (or she) will never be able to render the holiness and devotion necessary and appropriate for Holy Mass.  Operatic style is not conducive to prayer.  If you cannot sing without a vibrato, you should not sing in the choir.  Of course, if you're a priest you can do whatever you like or are capable of, and the choir provides the background.

    During Low Mass, the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Benedictus and Agnus Dei are never sung.  Nor is there any Vidi Aquam before Mass begins.

    Also, in this chaos of post-Conciliar liturgical battle, there are now Low Mass venues for Sunday Mass (and perhaps Holy Days of Obligation) where an Entrance or "Processional" hymn is sung until the priest begins the prayers at the Foot of the Altar.  Ideally, the singing should be over before he begins, and usually the priest will wait for the singing to stop before he says, "In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus sancti.  Amen.  Introibo ad altare Deo..."

    Such Low Masses might have any combination of Entrance, Offertory, Communion and/or Recessional hymns, but generally if there is only one it will be the Recessional, and if there is only two, it will be the Processional and Recessional, and if there are only three, Communion hymn would be added, but other combinations are possible, as this is not a strictly rubrical question.  If you were going to stick to the rubrics hard and fast, you would have no singing at Low Mass, except for perhaps a Recessional.

    Then comes about 6 minutes of silence during the Offertory, during which a collection is taken up, which commences after the priest recites the Offertory antiphon proper to that Mass, and during which time a nice, short hymn can be sung, preferably one that lasts about 2 to 4 minutes long, but should never keep going until the priest says, "Orate fratres..."  The congregation should have a minute or two of silence before hearing that said.  

    Then later, after the Minor Elevation and the second Confiteor, when there are communicants to receive, the priest turns to face the nave of the church and says, "Domine non sum dignus,..." three times, immediately following which a Communion Hymn may be sung.  When there are 50 or more people receiving Holy Communion, there can be 7 or more minutes of silence before the priest reads the Communion Antiphon proper to that Mass.  That's plenty of time for the choir to receive Communion and return to their place to sing for as many as 5 minutes.  That's long enough for two short hymns, or one hymn with 3 or 4 verses.  

    Finally, there is the Recessional, which is a hymn that begins after the Leonine Prayers After Low Mass, and any additional ones such as the Angelus or Soul of My Savior or one of the many prayers to the saints, such as the patron saint of the venue where Mass is being said.  During the Recessional it is improper for the congregation to make a B-line for the exit, although it's understandable if some particular people have to leave due to pressing concerns.  Nor is it appropriate for anyone to CLAP after the choir sings.  To do so, they would have to turn their backs on God and proceed to give praise to man, instead, which is a venial sin against the First Commandment, and perhaps a mortal sin, if done with malice, spite, or hatred of God.

    When possible, Latin should be used during Mass, such as the Offertory Hymn and Communion, but it's not obligatory.  Gregorian Chant is always preferred, but at the same time, polyphony most certainly has its place, especially when it is done well.  Some two part works in English are most conducive to prayer and contemplation for everyone who hears them, when the singers are well-rehearsed and stay IN TUNE.  It is absolutely UNNECESSARY to have an organ accompaniment to keep a good choir in tune.  The problem of intonation is almost entirely based in the TONE QUALITY being less than beautiful, as well as technical deficiencies such as proper breathing, diaphragm support, soft palate, posture, projection and ATTENTION TO DETAIL.
     
    At all times, the singing must render the ambiance of the Mass conducive to prayer.  The singing should not demand attention.  The singing is not entertainment.  Everyone in the congregation should be able to ENTIRELY  focus their attention ON THE MASS and their prayers, with the singing providing a backdrop, an atmosphere, a setting in which the Mass is the centerpiece. In this way, the choir is most analogous to Our Lady, as she is not the center of attention in the Mass, but she provides an essential framework for our human shortcomings to reference, such that our complete attention can be directed to Our Lord Crucified.

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    Offline clare

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    Singing at Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #12 on: January 13, 2014, 06:41:42 AM »
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  • There are Missa Cantatas sometimes. (I've been half a choir at a handful of them.)

    Missa Cantatas (Sung Masses) are not High Masses, for there is only one priest, and no deacon or subdeacon. There ought to be several servers including an MC, but it can be done with just one.

    The choir or cantor sing some Propers, and alternate with the congregation on the Kyrie, Gloria, etc.

    The priest sings his part too (Epistle, Gospel, Preface).

    There are no Leonine prayers afterwards, but, in the UK, we sing the Prayer for the Queen.

    Offline Matthew

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    Singing at Traditional Latin Mass?
    « Reply #13 on: January 15, 2014, 10:31:25 AM »
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  • At Low Masses at my SSPX chapel, there are 4 hymns. Processional/Recessional, as well as Offertory and Communion hymns.

    These are always reverent, and either in English or Latin. They aren't part of the Mass strictly speaking.

    We have the same number of hymns for High Mass, which is actually a Missa Cantata (we don't have a deacon or subdeacon). There are more servers than usual, incensing of the altar twice during Mass, etc. And of course the High Mass adds the Asperges, Kyrie, Gloria, etc. plus the Mass propers. A lot of singing all in all.

    I greatly prefer a High Mass. Much easier for me personally to "get something out of Mass". For other people it's the opposite. To each his own. Churches used to have more than one Mass on Sunday, so the gruff, "leavemealoneIwannareadmymissal" set could have their Low Mass, and those with a more fiery/poetic/Irish temperament could sung their prayers instead during a High Mass.

    It's been done that way at my chapel since at least 2004 when I arrived -- when Fr. Pfeiffer's brother (Fr. J. Timothy Pfeiffer) was pastor.
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