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Author Topic: Short Latin translation request  (Read 876 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Short Latin translation request
« on: November 09, 2021, 01:07:05 PM »
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  • Can anyone help translate the last bolded section of this Latin quote, which is critical to it?

    cuм multas ecclesias pastoribus carere ddicisset, militari habitu indutus et tiara capiti imposita Syriam, Phoeniciam et Palestinem, peraggravit, presbyteros ordinans et diaconos, aliosque sufficiens ordines ecclesiasticos; quod si quando doctrina consentientes episcopos invenisset, etiam pontifices carentibus ecclesiis praeficiebat.

    Until that point, I'm coming up with::

    When he had learned that many churches lack pastors, dressed in military garb and a tiara placed on his head, he traveled through Syria, Phoenicia, and Palestine, ordaining priests and deacons, and other sufficient ecclesiastical orders; and if at any time he had found bishops consenting to his doctrine,........

    Thanks in advance! 
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Romulus

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    Re: Short Latin translation request
    « Reply #1 on: November 09, 2021, 02:26:17 PM »
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  • he presided over the churches of the homeless even as high priests.


    This is what I'm getting.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Short Latin translation request
    « Reply #2 on: November 09, 2021, 02:46:20 PM »
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  • "... [he] was putting them as bishops in charge of churches that lacked [them]"

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Short Latin translation request
    « Reply #3 on: November 09, 2021, 02:58:58 PM »
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  • "... [he] was putting them as bishops in charge of churches that lacked [them]"

    Thank you!!!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Short Latin translation request
    « Reply #4 on: November 09, 2021, 04:19:47 PM »
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  • Thank you!!!

    You're very welcome.

    Interestingly, there appears to be a slightly different connotation between "episcopus" and "Pontifex".

    So whenever he found bishops "episcopos" who thought alike in doctrine, he would put set them up as "Pontiffs" ("Pontifices") over the churches that lacked them.  Almost sounds like he was installing them to act as ordinaries.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Short Latin translation request
    « Reply #5 on: November 09, 2021, 04:41:07 PM »
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  • I also didn't render the "etiam", which can be a bit difficult to translate.

    But it also backs up that Pontiff is higher than a mere bishop, so it's something like "he was also or even putting them in charge of churches that lacked them".

    I suspect that the notion of "churches" here refers to something akin to a diocese, because I doubt you'd install bishops in every local church.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Short Latin translation request
    « Reply #6 on: November 09, 2021, 05:18:52 PM »
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  • I also didn't render the "etiam", which can be a bit difficult to translate.

    But it also backs up that Pontiff is higher than a mere bishop, so it's something like "he was also or even putting them in charge of churches that lacked them".

    I suspect that the notion of "churches" here refers to something akin to a diocese, because I doubt you'd install bishops in every local church.

    The quote references the actions of St. Eusebius of Samasota during the Arian heresy, and that’s exactly what he was doing (installing bishops in particular churches/dioceses).

    A famous article by the SSPX defending the 1988 consecrations contains a reference to these actions of St. Eusebius by V. Manlio Simonetti here:

    https://sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/1999_July/The_1988_Consecrations.htm#39B

    However, I have just been made aware of another account Of St. Eusebius’s extraordinary actions by Dom Adrien Grea, which in turn contains a footnote of the translated quote, attributed to Theodoret.

    At issue isn’t whether St. Eusebius had the tacit permission of the Pope to do so.



    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Short Latin translation request
    « Reply #7 on: November 09, 2021, 05:26:14 PM »
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  • PS:

    For those not familiar with Dom Adrien Grea, he was one of the foremost experts on the powers of bishops and the foundations of the early particular churches.

    His works are mostly in French, but here is an excellent sample in English (a chapter from his book “The Church and it’s Divine Constitution”) discussing extraordinary manifestations of episcopal power:

    https://www.scribd.com/docuмent/360842998/Dom-Adrien-Grea-The-Extraordinary-Act-of-the-Episcopate
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Short Latin translation request
    « Reply #8 on: November 09, 2021, 05:29:26 PM »
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  • The quote references the actions of St. Eusebius of Samasota during the Arian heresy, and that’s exactly what he was doing (installing bishops in particular churches/dioceses).

    A famous article by the SSPX defending the 1988 consecrations contains a reference to these actions of St. Eusebius by V. Manlio Simonetti here:

    https://sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/1999_July/The_1988_Consecrations.htm#39B

    However, I have just been made aware of another account Of St. Eusebius’s extraordinary actions by Dom Adrien Grea, which in turn contains a footnote of the translated quote, attributed to Theodotius.

    At issue isn’t whether St. Eusebius had the tacit permission of the Pope to do so.

    That's a great quote.  I found it interesting the distinction between "episcopus" and "Pontifex".  I'm guessing that Pontifix means to actually be an ordinary over a place vs. just any bishop with orders, and I guess these regular bishps were something like auxiliaries.  It doesn't seem to indicate that he actually took any priests and consecrated them as bishops ... just that he found these (auxiliary?) bishops and put them in charge of "churches".  I'm not sure of the extent of this church, perhaps it would have been just a metropolitan area or something.  Not sure.

    Offline Romulus

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    Re: Short Latin translation request
    « Reply #9 on: November 09, 2021, 05:30:26 PM »
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  • Hmmmm...


    I just used google translate...


    I ain't using it again.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Short Latin translation request
    « Reply #10 on: November 09, 2021, 05:32:25 PM »
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  • quod si quando ... suggests that he took any bishop he could find who still had the faith and put him in charge of a Church that had no bishop with the faith.  Presumably there were Arians operating in those "churches" but he considered them illegitimate and therefore the see to be "vacant".  I know you didn't want to go there, Sean, but that's the impression I got form the quote.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Short Latin translation request
    « Reply #11 on: November 09, 2021, 06:09:32 PM »
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  • quod si quando ... suggests that he took any bishop he could find who still had the faith and put him in charge of a Church that had no bishop with the faith.  Presumably there were Arians operating in those "churches" but he considered them illegitimate and therefore the see to be "vacant".  I know you didn't want to go there, Sean, but that's the impression I got form the quote.

    As it turns out, I have an English-language translation of Theodoret’s history here:



    It contains the Latin phrase in the OP here:


    And a bit later, shows he was not only consecrating bishops, but installing them in other sees:

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Short Latin translation request
    « Reply #12 on: November 09, 2021, 06:23:13 PM »
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  • PS: And here's the book by Dom Adrien Grea (The Church and its Divine Constitution) in French (see last paragraph in p.218):

    https://archive.org/details/delgliseetdesa00gr/page/n239/mode/2up?q=Samosate

    "Thus, in the fourth century, St. Eusebius of Samasota visited the Eastern churches devastated by the Arians and ordained orthodox pastors for them, without having any special jurisdiction over them."
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Short Latin translation request
    « Reply #13 on: November 09, 2021, 06:24:02 PM »
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  • Working on refuting Salza?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Short Latin translation request
    « Reply #14 on: November 09, 2021, 06:39:05 PM »
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  • Working on refuting Salza?

    No, just figuring out things for myself.

    A friend of mine is making the argument that the SSPX is wrong to cite this example as demonstrating Lefebvre had jurisdiction to perform the 1988 consecrations, because it only shows that St. Eusebius would have had tacit approval from the Pope.

    This way of speaking about "jurisdictions for consecrations" confuses me, because so far as I know, the SSPX never alleged any "jurisdiction" to perform the consecrations.

    Instead, they adduced a state of necessity which created a duty in charity and justice, to come to the aid of the faithful.

    Moreover, "jurisdiction to perform consecrations" seems like a mixing or conflating of concepts to me (i.e., I understand jurisdiction in the context of sacramental validity, but not with regard to performing consecrations; nobody but the pope could be said to possess "jurisdiction" for consecrations).

    Another wrinkle is that the reservation of episcopal consecrations was not reserved to the Holy See until the 11th century (and then, only for the Latin Church).  Well, obviously St. Eusebius was operating well before then, so recourse to the Pope would not have been necessary one way or the other (i.e, no tacit approval was needed, because the duty to seek approval did not yet exist).

    Nevertheless, whatever one might say about all the foregoing, the example of Cardinal Slipyj consecrating bishops in the Ukraine under Paul VI in direct contravention to his policy prohibiting them in Ostpolitik (with the consecrated bishops being recognized later as valid and licit, and Cardinal Slipyj not incurring the automatic suspension for unauthorized episcopal consecrations envisaged in the 1917 CIC) clearly shows that necessity confers the duty to consecrate, and that the permission of peter is presumed because it is owed, and in such circuмstances he has not the power to withhold it.

    "Palazzini recalls that:

    Quote
    Quote
    ...today jurisdiction [over a diocese] is conferred [upon bishops] directly and expressly by the Pope…Formerly, however, it used to derive more indirectly from the Vicar of Christ as if from itself it flowed from the Pope onto those bishops, who were in union and peace with the Roman Church, mother and head of all churches [emphasis added].40

    Jurisdiction "as if from itself" seems to have flowed from the Pope in the history of the Church whenever a grave necessity of the Church and of souls demanded it. In such extraordinary circuмstances, says Dom Grea, the episcopacy proceeded "resolute in the tacit consent of its Head rendered certain by necessity" (op. cit. vol.I, p.220). Dom Grea does not say that the consent of the pope rendered the bishops certain of the necessity. On the contrary, the necessity rendered them certain of the consent of the pope. Precisely why did the necessity render the consent of their Head "certain," consent that in reality those bishops were ignoring? - Evidently because in necessity the positive judgment of Peter is owed."
    https://sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/1999_July/The_1988_Consecrations.htm
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."