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Author Topic: Self-Flagellation  (Read 1360 times)

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Offline Todd The Trad

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Self-Flagellation
« on: November 24, 2021, 01:10:56 PM »
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  • What do you guys think of self-flagellation? For anyone reading this who may not be familiar with this term, self-flagellation is the practice of flogging oneself with whips or other instruments that inflict pain, as a form of mortification/penance. Here is a list of some saints who practiced this discipline;

    "Saint Peter Damian taught that spirituality should manifest itself in physical discipline; he admonished those who sought to follow Christ to practice self-flagellation for the duration of the time it takes one to recite forty Psalms, increasing the number of flagellations on holy days of the Christian calendar."

    Although the sect was later condemned by the Church, the Flagellants publicly practiced self-flagellation as an attempt to repel the Black Death plague (self-flagellation itself was not condemned). 

    "St. Bridget of Sweden dripped burning candle wax onto her arms until they blistered to remind her of Christ's wounds, scratched open the wounds again before they healed, and took to chewing bitter gentian root at all times as a punishment for moments when she had taken pleasure in food and drink."

    St. Francis of Assisi is said to have practiced self-flagellation for the disciplining of the body, which he called "brother donkey."

    (St. Catherine of Siena) "Her zealous use of "the discipline"—a leather thong used to flagellate oneself in the monastic tradition—caused much pain."

    "St. Ignatius Loyola used the discipline (a whip of cords) on his back as well as a rope around his waist and twine around his knee as daily reminders to let the spirit rule the flesh." 

    Not that these men are to be imitated in much of anything, but even the likes of Martin Luther and JPII were said to have practiced self-flagellation. (They were feeling what they were doing to Christ with their sins against the faith :facepalm:) Members of the neo-conservative Opus Dei are said to do this as well.  

    The Fatima children would poke themselves with pins and tie tight ropes around their wastes as penance. I believe that the Blessed Virgin even told them that Jesus wanted them to stop wearing the rope at night but continue wearing it during the day. Are Jesus and Mary directly approving this practice in at least some circuмstances and moderated?  

    What do you guys think of self-flagellation? Does anyone here practice it or has anyone in the past? Is this something traditional Catholics should practice? I've read that one should only do this under the guidance of a spiritual director to avoid falling into pride. What if you don't have a spiritual director? Personally, I have tried this in the past and was thinking about reviving this practice for Advent. Good idea? Bad idea? What do you guys think about this? 


    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!


    Offline Matto

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    Re: Self-Flagellation
    « Reply #1 on: November 24, 2021, 01:21:19 PM »
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  • I used to put a rubber band around my wrist and snap it, causing a little pain. But that is nothing. I think self flagellation can be an act of virtue. Whenever anyone brings it up people say the person is proud and they shouldn't do it without the permission of their spiritual director. But many of the saints did, or if they did not whip themselves, they would take on extra sufferings whenever possible. But in these times nobody has a real spiritual director who knows anything about them at all. The best we get is a short confession for a minute or two before Mass. And I doubt there are many modern priests who would ever allow such practices at all. So it will either be without the permission of a spiritual director or never happen at all. But I think that is like trying to hit a home run when we can't even hit a single. We can't even fast properly. I would suggest to someone who wants to whip themselves to first fast until they eat only one meal a day, or as little as possible, only allowing extra food if necessary to avoid losing so much weight that it is dangerous. Once they can do that normal suffering and self-denial, then one can begin the extra suffering of whipping oneself.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Self-Flagellation
    « Reply #2 on: November 24, 2021, 02:44:44 PM »
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  • It should only be done under spiritual direction, and then the permission for it should rarely ever be granted, since this practice could very well be inspired from the wrong motives ... from pride, etc.  If I were a spiritual director, I would only ever allow this for someone who's deeply motivated by a love for souls to the practice.

    Offline Matto

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    Re: Self-Flagellation
    « Reply #3 on: November 24, 2021, 02:47:07 PM »
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  • It should only be done under spiritual direction, and then the permission for it should rarely ever be granted, since this practice could very well be inspired from the wrong motives ... from pride, etc.
    But it used to be super common, and not rare at all. Like when the parish had her annual lenten mission, after the sermons and the confessions the women and children would go home and the men would stay at Church, take off their shirts and whip themselves until they were covered with blood. Everyone knows the story of the Italians who would get together on Good Friday and put on real crowns of thorns, drive them into their heads and run up and down the hills of the town, cutting their legs and other parts of their body with broken glass until they were covered with blood. You can see it on youtube. The Novus Ordo priests try to stop them, but the tradition goes on.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Self-Flagellation
    « Reply #4 on: November 24, 2021, 02:59:47 PM »
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  • No reason not to, assuming the usual rules for penance are followed:

    1) Must have consent of spiritual director;

    2) Must remain unknown to all else;

    3) Must not inflict serious injury (eg., Risk of infection, etc.).


    https://www.etsy.com/listing/1009814430/19discipline-whip-scourge-flogger?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=scourging+whip&ref=sr_gallery-1-1&pro=1
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline songbird

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    Re: Self-Flagellation
    « Reply #6 on: November 24, 2021, 04:10:26 PM »
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  • I read in a book, dignities and duties of priesthood.  Interior mortification is very effect and desired by Christ the most, compared to exterior mortification.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Self-Flagellation
    « Reply #7 on: November 24, 2021, 04:14:52 PM »
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  • I read in a book, dignities and duties of priesthood.  Interior mortification is very effect and desired by Christ the most, compared to exterior mortification.

    One of my favorite books of all-time.

    Alongside the Apophthegmata, it made me a traditionalist by inspiring me to seek out priests who lived the way St. Alphonsus said they should in that book.

    Regarding the superiority of interior mortification, I have no doubt (breaking willfulness instead of skin, etc). 

    Still, if so many saints and religious orders use these things, there must be a place for them, for some people, subject to spiritual direction, of course.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Self-Flagellation
    « Reply #8 on: November 24, 2021, 04:20:17 PM »
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  • One of my favorite books of all-time.  Alongside the Apothegmota, it made me a traditionalist by inspiring me to seek out priests who lived the way St. Alphonsus said they should in that book.

    You and Fr. Robinson, apparently :laugh1:

    robinson
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Self-Flagellation
    « Reply #9 on: November 24, 2021, 04:22:00 PM »
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  • You and Fr. Robinson, apparently :laugh1:

    robinson

    I don’t understand.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Self-Flagellation
    « Reply #10 on: November 24, 2021, 04:33:57 PM »
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  • Todd-

    To answer your question:

    Today, flagellation is still practiced by the traditional Capucins in Morgon, once-traditional Transalpine Redemptorists in communal penance with lights out, and possibly by the traditional Carmelite sisters (can’t recall if they’re Discalced or not).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Self-Flagellation
    « Reply #11 on: November 24, 2021, 05:24:36 PM »
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  • No reason not to, assuming the usual rules for penance are followed:

    1) Must have consent of spiritual director;

    2) Must remain unknown to all else;

    3) Must not inflict serious injury (eg., Risk of infection, etc.).


    https://www.etsy.com/listing/1009814430/19discipline-whip-scourge-flogger?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=scourging+whip&ref=sr_gallery-1-1&pro=1


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