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Author Topic: Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)  (Read 30113 times)

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Offline AMDG forever

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Re: Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2025, 04:56:01 PM »
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  • We think there's "no question" mostly because that's what everyone has assumed, but if a priest can under some circuмstances confirm, that means that it's within the power of orders.  So what's missing?  Authorization, authority, jurisdicition.  But then somehow this power is in the bishop's orders in such a way as to not require authorization, authority, jurisdiction?

    Take another Sacrament.  Confession.  Priests normally can't absolve from sin if they lack jurisdiction, authorization ... from a bishop (with jurisdiction).  Priests cannot receive authorization to validly absolve from sin from some auxiliary bishop, NOR can said auxiliar bishop validly absolve from sin without himself having authorization with an actual bishop with jurisdiction.

    So you'd have to say ...

    Bishops Orders = power to confirm + intrinsic authority to confirm

    Priest's Orders = power to confirm - intrinsic authority to confirm

    and yet with Confession ...

    Bishops Orders = power to absolve - instrinsic authority to absolve

    Priest's Orders = power to absolve - instrinsic authority to absolve

    Why is the authority to confirm intrinsically within episcopal orders but not the authority to absolve?  That has never been satisfactorily answered.
    Have to give credit where credit is due, boss. You make a decent case here.

    Online Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)
    « Reply #16 on: September 09, 2025, 08:02:25 PM »
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  • Just asking out of total ignorance here, does the SSPX ever allow priests to confer confirmation (aside from cases such as danger of death of the confirmand)?

    The SSPX bishops don't enjoy ordinary jurisdiction, and it is at least doubtful that they have the power to authorize priests to confer it.  Confirmation conferred by their bishops is obviously valid, in that the power to confirm inheres to the order of bishop qua bishop.

    Yes, they do. This is the exact case that I have described.

    When this person was doing the paperwork to get married, the SSPX priests realized that he had a doubtful baptism, so he was baptized again, and, as there was no time to wait for the bishop's visit before the wedding, he was confirmed just after baptism by the priest.


    Offline Twice dyed

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    Re: Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)
    « Reply #17 on: September 09, 2025, 10:27:28 PM »
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  • A very similar case in our mission 25 years ago. The bride to be was a cradle SSPX, but the man was very new to Catholicism, from paganism, but soon he was very serious about the Faith. So he got baptized, a month later they got married. He was confirmed about 6 months later by +Williamson. The SSPX wouldn't even entertain the possibilty of a simple priest doing the Confirmation.

    Curious: Doesn't the neoSspx have sufficient BISHOPS?
       
    La mesure de l'amour, c'est d'aimer sans mesure.
    The measure of love is to love without measure.
                                     St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)
    « Reply #18 on: September 10, 2025, 09:10:46 AM »
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  • Have to give credit where credit is due, boss. You make a decent case here.

    So, I'm open to being proven wrong here and perfectly happy to retract my opinion ... it's just that I've not yet seen a satisfactory explanation for or articulation of how this works.

    Absolution ->
    -- Power of Orders + Power of Jurisdiction
    -- Jurisdiction:  Explicitly Granted only by bishop with jurisdiction
    -- Jurisdiction: Explicitly Granted by Church Law in specific cases (danger of death)
    -- Jurisdiction: Implicitly Granted by Church Law (due to crisis, salus animarum)

    Confirmation ->
    -- Power of Orders + Power of Jurisdiction
    -- Jurisdiction:  Explicitly Granted only by bishop with jurisdiction
    -- Jurisdiction:  Explicilty Granted by Church Law in specific cases (danger of death), or Law of Eatern Churches (Eastern Rite priests)
    -- Jurisdiction:  Implicitly CANNOT BE GRANTED

    So the only difference is we have SOMEthing going on (from those who advocate that position) where the only difference is that they claim that the Jursdiction / Authority / Delegation cannot be granted implicitly due to the crisis in the Church.

    I know the proponents of it have used the term "Delegation" to make it sound like it's different, but then what is this "Delegation" ... some weird thing that's in a gray area between Power of Orders and Power of Jurisdiction.  What is that tertium quid that is not EITHER Power of Orders OR Power of Jurisdiction?

    Unless this can be explained, I don't know why the authority / jurisdiction / delegation for Confirmation cannot be supplied due to the crisis, just as it is for absolution.  PERHAPS one could try to argue that it isn't supplied since there's less "need" for it, but where is the degree of necessity defined?  Is Confirmation superfluous and unnecessary and meaningless?  Or does it provide great assistance in the salvation of souls?  Since there are SOME Traditional bishops out there, is there no need because, well, if you wait a couple years, you might be able to get on that circuit?  What of those priests before SSPX had bishops who had no access to bishops?  What of those priest who maybe aren't on good terms with SSPX or any of the +Thuc line bishops?  Trying to assert that there's not sufficient "necessity" for Confirmation not only seems rather subjective, and appears to diminish the necessity of this great Sacrament, but it also still doesn't explain any difference in PRINCIPLE to how Confession works (as this is a matter of practical application).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)
    « Reply #19 on: September 10, 2025, 09:14:54 AM »
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  • Here was a lengthy and hotly-debated thread on the subject before ...

    https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/fr-raphael-arrizaga-begins-administering-confirmations/

    There's a link in the first post to this article here ...
    https://benedictinos.blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/pdf_the-extraordinary-minister-of-confirmation.pdf

    I found the case made there to be fairly persuasive.


    Online Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)
    « Reply #20 on: September 10, 2025, 09:45:58 AM »
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  • From what I have seen on the other thread, the big difference between confirmation and absolution is that the theology behind absolution has been very clear and precise for centuries, whereas we can see a lot of quotes by pre-conciliar theologians on priestly confirmations and they seem rather lost and unable to explain how this "delegation" works.

    The matter seems way too confusing to me. I would not risk getting a confirmation done by a priest if I could get a bishop within a reasonable amout of time.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)
    « Reply #21 on: September 10, 2025, 10:04:19 AM »
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  • From what I have seen on the other thread, the big difference between confirmation and absolution is that the theology behind absolution has been very clear and precise for centuries, whereas we can see a lot of quotes by pre-conciliar theologians on priestly confirmations and they seem rather lost and unable to explain how this "delegation" works.

    The matter seems way too confusing to me. I would not risk getting a confirmation done by a priest if I could get a bishop within a reasonable amout of time.

    I don't think there's any more risk than with Confession and Holy Matrimony.  No one has explained how there's some tertium quid other than the Power or Orders and the Power of Jurisdiction.  Until such a time, there's no difference whatsoever between Absolution / Matrimony and Confirmation.  You're fanning the flames of negative doubt FUD here by avoiding "risk".  There's "risk" in Matrimony where you might be living in sin if you got that wrong.  There's risk in Confession also.  I don't see how there's any more or different risk whatsoever with Confirmation.  There's no such thing as "Delegation", where you can somehow transfer ad hoc a Power of Orders that isn't already in herent in the priest's Orders simply by virtue of his ordination to the priesthood.  That's what they're grasping at with "delegation", but it's nonsensical, and really is a made-up term.  If the Church can explicilty authorize it in danger of death or in mission terrotiries (as the Council of Trent did ... are we not in missionary status today), and if Eastern Rite priests can do it as if they were the Ordinary ministers of the Sacrament ... then there's not a lick of difference I can see there.  If a bishop had to delegate some part of the Power of Orders, the Church law could never simply auto-delegate it in the case of danger of death.  But if the Church can auto-delegate it in danger of death, then the Church can also auto-delegate it in other cases of necessity.

    Offline VivaJesus

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    From what I have seen on the other thread, the big difference between confirmation and absolution is that the theology behind absolution has been very clear and precise for centuries, whereas we can see a lot of quotes by pre-conciliar theologians on priestly confirmations and they seem rather lost and unable to explain how this "delegation" works.

    The matter seems way too confusing to me. I would not risk getting a confirmation done by a priest if I could get a bishop within a reasonable amout of time.
    Hi, GB:

    IIRC, on the other thread somebody quoted Pope Benedict XIII saying that a Latin Rite priest without papal delegation cannot validly confirm. That's an authoritative source that should settle the matter.  

    The reason behind that has to do with the fact that a simple priest is only ordained for the physical Body of Christ (the Eucharist) and all his powers are directed towards it. For example, he has the power of absolution so that the faithful who go to confession with him may afterwards go to communion. On the other hand, a bishop is ordained for the mystical Body of Christ (the Church). The sacrament of confirmation is an ecclesial function (raising soldiers for the army of Christ) over which only a bishop has power. 

    The pope may give the power to confirm to a simple priest because "Papa habet plenitudinem potestatis in Ecclesia" - St. Thomas.

    Here are a couple of studies that show the great difference between the powers of priest and the powers of a bishop and that, consequently, a simple priest without papal delegation does not have the power to confirm.


    My personal posture: Paul VI and his successors lack(ed) papal authority. NO orders must be considered invalid. As of Sept. 2025, I have grave reservations towards virtually all traditionalist groups (sede or not). Therefore, I take back everything that I've said in favor of this or that group or bishop. Quotations or references are not necessarily endorsements of their authors. BOD/BOB would only apply to those with explicit faith in the Trinity and the Incarnation. ¡Viva Jesús! ¡Viva María!


    Offline Kolar

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    Eastern Rite priests can confirm babies immediately after Baptism.
    Can they give confirmation at other times? I think not.

    Offline VivaJesus

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    So, I'm open to being proven wrong here and perfectly happy to retract my opinion ... it's just that I've not yet seen a satisfactory explanation for or articulation of how this works.
    Hi, Ladislaus:

    Check out the studies by Fr. Belmont that I attached to my previous comment on this thread. One of them directly addresses the question of the invalidity of confirmations from a priest without papal delegation. The other article explains more in detail the difference between a priest and a bishop, who's not simply a priest with extra powers but a possessor through his episcopal consecration of a special relationship with the Mystical Body of Christ that a priest lacks. As a consequence of that, a priest cannot validly confirm without papal delegation.

    May Our Lady keep you under her mantle!
    My personal posture: Paul VI and his successors lack(ed) papal authority. NO orders must be considered invalid. As of Sept. 2025, I have grave reservations towards virtually all traditionalist groups (sede or not). Therefore, I take back everything that I've said in favor of this or that group or bishop. Quotations or references are not necessarily endorsements of their authors. BOD/BOB would only apply to those with explicit faith in the Trinity and the Incarnation. ¡Viva Jesús! ¡Viva María!