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Author Topic: Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)  (Read 34147 times)

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Offline Giovanni Berto

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Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)
« on: September 08, 2025, 05:51:40 PM »
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    • I was talking the other day to a Sedevacantist independent priest (a "totalist", as far as I know), and we ended up talking about a person I know who has received Confirmation from a SSPX priest in order to get married.

    He said that such Confirmations are of doubtful validity, since when Pius XII made it possible for certain priests to confirm, it was a personal priviledge, and not even the diocesan bishop could give it to another priest. The authority to do this belonged to the Pope only.

    As I understand it, he was saying that the state of "sede vacante" is not enough of a reason to presume that any priest can validly confer Confirmation.

    The more I think of it, the less it makes sense. As far as I know, Confirmation has never been a Sacrament that requires jurisdiction to be valid, as is the case with Marriage and Penitence. Eastern Rite priests confer Confirmation on babies after Baptism. Any Eastern Catholic priest can do it, as far as I know. So, it does not seem that Confirmation is a Sacrament exclusive to bishops, as Holy Orders are. Priests are sacramentally able to confer Confirmation. Otherwise, Pius XII would not have given some of them authority do so.

    Is the opinion that priestly Confirmations are doubtful predominant among Sedevacantists? Does it make sense? Is it really doubtful?

    If the wise and knowledgeable could share some thoughts on this, I would be grateful. The others' opinions are welcome too.;)

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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)
    « Reply #1 on: September 08, 2025, 05:54:29 PM »
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    • If you look up the sacrament of confirmation in any religion book, it'll say a bishop is the ordinary minister. Yes, some priests got special indults to do so, but it's just not known how exactly that works and whether the sacrament is valid without the indult or not.

    Sedevacantist priests do not give the sacrament of confirmation except to someone on their deathbed, as far as I know. There's just no reason to take a chance on validity, since bishops can do so and there is no question about validity when they do it.
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    Offline Emile

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    Re: Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)
    « Reply #2 on: September 08, 2025, 05:56:31 PM »
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    If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)
    « Reply #3 on: September 08, 2025, 05:57:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on September 08, 2025, 05:51:40 PM
    I was talking the other day to a Sedevacantist independent priest (a "totalist", as far as I know), and we ended up talking about a person I know who has received Confirmation from a SSPX priest in order to get married.

    He said that such Confirmations are of doubtful validity, since when Pius XII made it possible for certain priests to confirm, it was a personal priviledge, and not even the diocesan bishop could give it to another priest. The authority to do this belonged to the Pope only.

    As I understand it, he was saying that the state of "sede vacante" is not enough of a reason to presume that any priest can validly confer Confirmation.

    The more I think of it, the less it makes sense. As far as I know, Confirmation has never been a Sacrament that requires jurisdiction to be valid, as is the case with Marriage and Penitence. Eastern Rite priests confer Confirmation on babies after Baptism. Any Eastern Catholic priest can do it, as far as I know. So, it does not seem that Confirmation is a Sacrament exclusive to bishops, as Holy Orders are. Priests are sacramentally able to confer Confirmation. Otherwise, Pius XII would not have given some of them authority do so.

    Is the opinion that priestly Confirmations are doubtful predominant among Sedevacantists? Does it make sense? Is it really doubtful?

    If the wise and knowledgeable could share some thoughts on this, I would be grateful. The others' opinions are welcome too.;)


    Another thing to consider is, if a priest could just automatically give confirmation, then why would the pope have to give anyone the power to do so?

    Basically, it might be valid but no one knows exactly what happens when a priest confers it without papal authorization, so they just play it safe.



    Quote
    Is the opinion that priestly Confirmations are doubtful predominant among Sedevacantists? Does it make sense? Is it really doubtful?



    Yes. No major sedevacantist organization has priests confer confirmation outside danger of death.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)
    « Reply #4 on: September 08, 2025, 05:58:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on September 08, 2025, 05:51:40 PM
    Confirmation has never been a Sacrament that requires jurisdiction to be valid, as is the case with Marriage and Penitence. 
    .

    There isn't the same necessity for a priest to confirm as there is for him to hear confessions and administer matrimony, so he can't really assume permission to confirm the way he can for penance and matrimony.
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    Online Mithrandylan

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    Re: Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)
    « Reply #5 on: September 08, 2025, 09:35:41 PM »
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    • Extensive research has been conducted into this question. Trad clergy cannot validly confirm, and this incapacity has to do with orders, not jurisdiction. 

    https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/fr-raphael-arrizaga-begins-administering-confirmations/

    ^^ this thread is a good survey and discussion of the theology surrounding this matter. 
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    Offline HeidtXtreme

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    Re: Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)
    « Reply #6 on: September 08, 2025, 09:52:27 PM »
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    • Confirmation isn’t required for the validity of marriage… so why would an SSPX priest be worried about someone being confirmed? Aren’t exceptions to the norm (Confirmation before Matrimony) allowed when there are so few Bishops to Confirm the Faithful?
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)
    « Reply #7 on: September 08, 2025, 10:55:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on September 08, 2025, 05:58:45 PM
    .

    There isn't the same necessity for a priest to confirm as there is for him to hear confessions and administer matrimony, so he can't really assume permission to confirm the way he can for penance and matrimony.
    Confirmation, while highly desirable, is not absolutely necessary for salvation.  It does not remove sin the way penance and extreme unction do, and if an adult were to die without it, assuming that no contempt for the sacrament had kept them from seeking to be confirmed, their salvation would be in no danger whatsoever.

    The gifts of the Holy Ghost are better to have than not to have, but again, they are not absolutely necessary.  I would be interested to know if confirmation was required prior to marriage before the Vatican II era, nowadays, if they can create a new hoop to jump through, they will.  This whole RCIA/OCIA/whatever business makes people go through endless rigamarole, when what they need is to be received into the Church and to receive her sacraments sooner rather than later.  I suppose Newchurch doesn't think there's any urgency to the matter.
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    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)
    « Reply #8 on: September 08, 2025, 11:40:46 PM »
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    • I did not know about that old thread, otherwise I would not have started this one.

    I have read some of it, and it looks that it is a pretty messy subject.

    All things considered, I would not trust a Confirmation conferred by a priest. It is good to know that the consensus among Sedevacantists is taking the safer route.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)
    « Reply #9 on: September 09, 2025, 08:00:40 AM »
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    • I believe that priets can validly confirm given the state of crisis in the Church.  If priests can confirm at all, whether with or without permission, approval, authorization, such as Eastern Rite priests who confirm even in ordinary times, then the power is present in the Holy Orders of the priest, even if he's not the ordinary minister of the Sacrament.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)
    « Reply #10 on: September 09, 2025, 09:13:42 AM »
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    • Just asking out of total ignorance here, does the SSPX ever allow priests to confer confirmation (aside from cases such as danger of death of the confirmand)?

    The SSPX bishops don't enjoy ordinary jurisdiction, and it is at least doubtful that they have the power to authorize priests to confer it.  Confirmation conferred by their bishops is obviously valid, in that the power to confirm inheres to the order of bishop qua bishop.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)
    « Reply #11 on: September 09, 2025, 09:25:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on September 09, 2025, 09:13:42 AM
    Just asking out of total ignorance here, does the SSPX ever allow priests to confer confirmation (aside from cases such as danger of death of the confirmand)?

    The SSPX bishops don't enjoy ordinary jurisdiction, and it is at least doubtful that they have the power to authorize priests to confer it.  Confirmation conferred by their bishops is obviously valid, in that the power to confirm inheres to the order of bishop qua bishop.

    Yeah, I've had a similar question about those who say that bishops can confirm without any jurisdiction or authority ... whereas priests cannot, since the Traditional bishops lack the jurisdiction also.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)
    « Reply #12 on: September 09, 2025, 09:26:23 AM »
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    • There is no necessity for priests to confirm today, since basically everyone sooner or later will be able to receive confirmation from a bishop. Traditional bishops travel around and confer confirmations. It might involve waiting a couple of years, but there is no inherent urgency in receiving the sacrament of confirmation. And no, it does not need to be received before getting married.

    Since it is sacrilegious to receive a sacrament that is not certainly valid, and confirmation from a bishop is certainly valid while coming from a priest it is not certain, that is why priest confirmations are not done by sedevacantist priests.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)
    « Reply #13 on: September 09, 2025, 09:28:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 09, 2025, 09:25:37 AM
    Yeah, I've had a similar question about those who say that bishops can confirm without any jurisdiction or authority ... whereas priests cannot, since the Traditional bishops lack the jurisdiction also.

    .

    I think there is no question that a bishop can confer confirmation validly even without any jurisdiction, as it is a power inherent in the episcopacy. But the fact that priests need some sort of authorization to confirm raises various questions as to why this is necessary, and whether it is valid without this authorization.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Sedevacantist priest: Confirmations conferred by priests are invalid (???)
    « Reply #14 on: September 09, 2025, 04:32:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on September 09, 2025, 09:28:34 AM
    I think there is no question that a bishop can confer confirmation validly even without any jurisdiction, as it is a power inherent in the episcopacy. But the fact that priests need some sort of authorization to confirm raises various questions as to why this is necessary, and whether it is valid without this authorization.

    We think there's "no question" mostly because that's what everyone has assumed, but if a priest can under some circuмstances confirm, that means that it's within the power of orders.  So what's missing?  Authorization, authority, jurisdicition.  But then somehow this power is in the bishop's orders in such a way as to not require authorization, authority, jurisdiction?

    Take another Sacrament.  Confession.  Priests normally can't absolve from sin if they lack jurisdiction, authorization ... from a bishop (with jurisdiction).  Priests cannot receive authorization to validly absolve from sin from some auxiliary bishop, NOR can said auxiliar bishop validly absolve from sin without himself having authorization with an actual bishop with jurisdiction.

    So you'd have to say ...

    Bishops Orders = power to confirm + intrinsic authority to confirm

    Priest's Orders = power to confirm - intrinsic authority to confirm

    and yet with Confession ...

    Bishops Orders = power to absolve - instrinsic authority to absolve

    Priest's Orders = power to absolve - instrinsic authority to absolve

    Why is the authority to confirm intrinsically within episcopal orders but not the authority to absolve?  That has never been satisfactorily answered.
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