Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Schismatic Sacraments  (Read 898 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Todd The Trad

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 594
  • Reputation: +192/-8
  • Gender: Male
Schismatic Sacraments
« on: October 03, 2022, 03:24:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • While reading about Eastern Catholicism I have come across many Eastern Orthodox who believe that valid sacraments cannot exist outside of the true Church, EO in their case. They say all sacraments, including baptism, existing outside the Church are nothing, are fake. They say the idea of valid sacraments and a valid priesthood existing through apostolic succession OUTSIDE of the official Church was not believed by the Fathers and that it was basically invented by Aquinas. Even if a convert is received by Chrismation only they still believe their former baptism was graceless and Chrismation just fills the empty form. Many Orthodox groups do rebaptize. Anyone know patristic evidence or any evidence that valid orders and sacraments can exist in schismatic sects? 
    Logged
    Our Lady of La Salette, pray for us!

    Offline epiphany

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3542
    • Reputation: +1097/-875
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Schismatic Sacraments
    « Reply #1 on: October 03, 2022, 03:29:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Todd The Trad on October 03, 2022, 03:24:55 PM
    While reading about Eastern Catholicism I have come across many Eastern Orthodox who believe that valid sacraments cannot exist outside of the true Church, EO in their case. They say all sacraments, including baptism, existing outside the Church are nothing, are fake. They say the idea of valid sacraments and a valid priesthood existing through apostolic succession OUTSIDE of the official Church was not believed by the Fathers and that it was basically invented by Aquinas. Even if a convert is received by Chrismation only they still believe their former baptism was graceless and Chrismation just fills the empty form. Many Orthodox groups do rebaptize. Anyone know patristic evidence or any evidence that valid orders and sacraments can exist in schismatic sects?
    Once a priest, always a priest, schusmatic or not.  
    Logged

    Offline Cryptinox

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1149
    • Reputation: +248/-91
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Schismatic Sacraments
    « Reply #2 on: October 03, 2022, 03:36:25 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Actually, the west's view on sacraments is found in Augustine and Pope St. Stephen. St. Cyprian argued with Pope St. Stephen on the validity of heretic baptisms. 
    Logged

    Offline HolyAngels

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 317
    • Reputation: +130/-28
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Schismatic Sacraments
    « Reply #3 on: October 03, 2022, 03:44:19 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • So if I convert to EO, are we gonna party like it's 1054 after they baptise me ?

    :laugh1:
    Logged
    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10051
    • Reputation: +5251/-916
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Schismatic Sacraments
    « Reply #4 on: October 03, 2022, 03:59:34 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: HolyAngels on October 03, 2022, 03:44:19 PM
    So if I convert to EO, are we gonna party like it's 1054 after they baptise me ?

    :laugh1:
    :laugh1:


    Logged
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline HolyAngels

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 317
    • Reputation: +130/-28
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Schismatic Sacraments
    « Reply #5 on: October 03, 2022, 05:01:32 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 2Vermont on October 03, 2022, 03:59:34 PM
    :laugh1:


    Ha, that song is precisely what I was thinking !
    Logged
    For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places
    Ephesians 6:12

    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 529
    • Reputation: +249/-87
    • Gender: Male
    • O sacrum convivum... https://youtu.be/-WCicnX6pN8
    Re: Schismatic Sacraments
    « Reply #6 on: October 04, 2022, 06:11:28 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Validity of sacraments by heretics and schismatics is de fide ecclesiastica (I think) and not to be doubted.
    Logged

    Offline Melanie

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 96
    • Reputation: +50/-27
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Schismatic Sacraments
    « Reply #7 on: October 04, 2022, 07:18:00 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Well, this is slightly off topic but…I looked into Eastern Orthodox a little and they reject the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary.  Any port in a storm and if I’m on my death bed but I wouldn’t convert to EO.  But this Byzantine Catholic…so a Priest ordained in the Byzantine Catholic Rite would be a certainly valid ordination, no?  And he would surely be mistakenly following Jorge but a mistake does not invalidate any Sacraments and it doesn’t even make you a heretic.  This is stupid but I’ve got this image of Eastern Catholics being from the East; if a Priest was ordained in the Eparchy of Passaic in New Jersey this is still being ordained in the Byzantine Catholic Rite correct, not New Order?  
    Logged

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10051
    • Reputation: +5251/-916
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Schismatic Sacraments
    « Reply #8 on: October 04, 2022, 07:43:42 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Melanie on October 04, 2022, 07:18:00 AM
    Well, this is slightly off topic but…I looked into Eastern Orthodox a little and they reject the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary.  Any port in a storm and if I’m on my death bed but I wouldn’t convert to EO.  But this Byzantine Catholic…so a Priest ordained in the Byzantine Catholic Rite would be a certainly valid ordination, no?  And he would surely be mistakenly following Jorge but a mistake does not invalidate any Sacraments and it doesn’t even make you a heretic.  This is stupid but I’ve got this image of Eastern Catholics being from the East; if a Priest was ordained in the Eparchy of Passaic in New Jersey this is still being ordained in the Byzantine Catholic Rite correct, not New Order? 
    Assuming you're in Passaic County, NJ, why wouldn't there be an SSPX chapel at least?  I actually went to one years ago for confession in North Caldwell, which is in Essex County.  Of course, I don't know who the priest is there now, but I was able to determine that the priest there at the time was ordained by Archbishop Lefebrve.
    Logged
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Melanie

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 96
    • Reputation: +50/-27
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Schismatic Sacraments
    « Reply #9 on: October 04, 2022, 07:51:28 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 2Vermont on October 04, 2022, 07:43:42 AM
    Assuming you're in Passaic County, NJ, why wouldn't there be an SSPX chapel at least?  I actually went to one years ago for confession in North Caldwell, which is in Essex County.  Of course, I don't know who the priest is there now, but I was able to determine that the priest there at the time was ordained by Archbishop Lefebrve.
    Well, while the EO reject the dogma on the Immaculate Conception, the SSPX rejects the dogma on the Papacy.  I’m just exploring this now because Byzantine Catholic Rite never occurred to me but I don’t see how they are schismatic or hold heresy other than mistakenly uniting to a false Pope.  Granted, this is getting to be a more egregious mistake by the day, the more apostasy this clown spouts but it is still a mistake, I would think…this would not be illicit unless I’m missing something?
    Logged

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10051
    • Reputation: +5251/-916
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Schismatic Sacraments
    « Reply #10 on: October 04, 2022, 07:52:56 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Melanie on October 04, 2022, 07:51:28 AM
    Well, while the EO reject the dogma on the Immaculate Conception, the SSPX rejects the dogma on the Papacy.  I’m just exploring this now because Byzantine Catholic Rite never occurred to me but I don’t see how they are schismatic or hold heresy other than mistakenly uniting to a false Pope.  Granted, this is getting to be a more egregious mistake by the day, the more apostasy this clown spouts but it is still a mistake, I would think…this would not be illicit unless I’m missing something.
    Why is it a "mistake" for the Eastern Catholics [not EO] and not for the SSPX?
    Logged
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Melanie

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 96
    • Reputation: +50/-27
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Schismatic Sacraments
    « Reply #11 on: October 04, 2022, 07:56:22 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 2Vermont on October 04, 2022, 07:52:56 AM
    Why is it a "mistake" for the Eastern Catholics [not EO] and not for the SSPX?
    Because the Eastern Catholics mistakenly believe Jorge the Pope and submit to him.  SSPX mistakenly believe Jorge the Pope and refuse submission based on reasoning that there have been two dogmatic formulas in the Hx of the Church that require their submission and that’s the extent of the submission due the Papacy.
    Logged
    Pages: [1]
    « previous next »