Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => The Sacred: Catholic Liturgy, Chant, Prayers => Topic started by: Todd The Trad on October 03, 2022, 03:24:55 PM
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While reading about Eastern Catholicism I have come across many Eastern Orthodox who believe that valid sacraments cannot exist outside of the true Church, EO in their case. They say all sacraments, including baptism, existing outside the Church are nothing, are fake. They say the idea of valid sacraments and a valid priesthood existing through apostolic succession OUTSIDE of the official Church was not believed by the Fathers and that it was basically invented by Aquinas. Even if a convert is received by Chrismation only they still believe their former baptism was graceless and Chrismation just fills the empty form. Many Orthodox groups do rebaptize. Anyone know patristic evidence or any evidence that valid orders and sacraments can exist in schismatic sects?
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While reading about Eastern Catholicism I have come across many Eastern Orthodox who believe that valid sacraments cannot exist outside of the true Church, EO in their case. They say all sacraments, including baptism, existing outside the Church are nothing, are fake. They say the idea of valid sacraments and a valid priesthood existing through apostolic succession OUTSIDE of the official Church was not believed by the Fathers and that it was basically invented by Aquinas. Even if a convert is received by Chrismation only they still believe their former baptism was graceless and Chrismation just fills the empty form. Many Orthodox groups do rebaptize. Anyone know patristic evidence or any evidence that valid orders and sacraments can exist in schismatic sects?
Once a priest, always a priest, schusmatic or not.
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Actually, the west's view on sacraments is found in Augustine and Pope St. Stephen. St. Cyprian argued with Pope St. Stephen on the validity of heretic baptisms.
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So if I convert to EO, are we gonna party like it's 1054 after they baptise me ?
:laugh1:
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So if I convert to EO, are we gonna party like it's 1054 after they baptise me ?
:laugh1:
:laugh1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rblt2EtFfC4
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:laugh1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rblt2EtFfC4
Ha, that song is precisely what I was thinking !
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Validity of sacraments by heretics and schismatics is de fide ecclesiastica (I think) and not to be doubted.
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Well, this is slightly off topic but…I looked into Eastern Orthodox a little and they reject the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary. Any port in a storm and if I’m on my death bed but I wouldn’t convert to EO. But this Byzantine Catholic…so a Priest ordained in the Byzantine Catholic Rite would be a certainly valid ordination, no? And he would surely be mistakenly following Jorge but a mistake does not invalidate any Sacraments and it doesn’t even make you a heretic. This is stupid but I’ve got this image of Eastern Catholics being from the East; if a Priest was ordained in the Eparchy of Passaic in New Jersey this is still being ordained in the Byzantine Catholic Rite correct, not New Order?
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Well, this is slightly off topic but…I looked into Eastern Orthodox a little and they reject the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary. Any port in a storm and if I’m on my death bed but I wouldn’t convert to EO. But this Byzantine Catholic…so a Priest ordained in the Byzantine Catholic Rite would be a certainly valid ordination, no? And he would surely be mistakenly following Jorge but a mistake does not invalidate any Sacraments and it doesn’t even make you a heretic. This is stupid but I’ve got this image of Eastern Catholics being from the East; if a Priest was ordained in the Eparchy of Passaic in New Jersey this is still being ordained in the Byzantine Catholic Rite correct, not New Order?
Assuming you're in Passaic County, NJ, why wouldn't there be an SSPX chapel at least? I actually went to one years ago for confession in North Caldwell, which is in Essex County. Of course, I don't know who the priest is there now, but I was able to determine that the priest there at the time was ordained by Archbishop Lefebrve.
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Assuming you're in Passaic County, NJ, why wouldn't there be an SSPX chapel at least? I actually went to one years ago for confession in North Caldwell, which is in Essex County. Of course, I don't know who the priest is there now, but I was able to determine that the priest there at the time was ordained by Archbishop Lefebrve.
Well, while the EO reject the dogma on the Immaculate Conception, the SSPX rejects the dogma on the Papacy. I’m just exploring this now because Byzantine Catholic Rite never occurred to me but I don’t see how they are schismatic or hold heresy other than mistakenly uniting to a false Pope. Granted, this is getting to be a more egregious mistake by the day, the more apostasy this clown spouts but it is still a mistake, I would think…this would not be illicit unless I’m missing something?
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Well, while the EO reject the dogma on the Immaculate Conception, the SSPX rejects the dogma on the Papacy. I’m just exploring this now because Byzantine Catholic Rite never occurred to me but I don’t see how they are schismatic or hold heresy other than mistakenly uniting to a false Pope. Granted, this is getting to be a more egregious mistake by the day, the more apostasy this clown spouts but it is still a mistake, I would think…this would not be illicit unless I’m missing something.
Why is it a "mistake" for the Eastern Catholics [not EO] and not for the SSPX?
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Why is it a "mistake" for the Eastern Catholics [not EO] and not for the SSPX?
Because the Eastern Catholics mistakenly believe Jorge the Pope and submit to him. SSPX mistakenly believe Jorge the Pope and refuse submission based on reasoning that there have been two dogmatic formulas in the Hx of the Church that require their submission and that’s the extent of the submission due the Papacy.