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Author Topic: Sacramentum Ordinis vs the Council of Florence  (Read 687 times)

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Offline Cryptinox

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Sacramentum Ordinis vs the Council of Florence
« on: May 05, 2020, 10:12:35 PM »
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    •  The sixth sacrament is that of order, the matter of which is that through whose transmission the order is conferred: just as the priesthood is transmitted through the offering of the chalice with wine and of the paten with bread; the diaconate, however, by the giving of the book of the Gospels; but the subdiaconate by the giving of the empty chalice with the empty paten superimposed; and similarly with regard to the others by allotment of things pertaining to their ministry. The form of such priesthood is: Accipe potestatem offerendi sacrificium in ecclesia pro vivis et mortuis, in nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti. And thus with regard to the forms of the other orders, as is contained extensively in the Roman pontifical. The ordinary minister of this sacrament is the bishop. The effect is increase of grace, so that the one ordained be a worthy minister." (Council of Florence)

    now here is what Sacramentum Ordinis by Pius XII says :
    "In the Ordination to the Priesthood, the matter is the first imposition off hands of the Bishop which is done in silence, but not the continuation of the same imposition through the extension of the right hand, nor the last imposition to which are attached the words: 'Accipe Spiritum Sanctum: quorum remiseris peccata, etc.' And the form consists of the words of the “Preface,” of which the following are essential and therefore required for validity: 'Da, quaesumus, omnipotens Pater, in hunc famulum tuum Presbyterii dignitatem; innova in visceribus eius spiritum sanctitatis, ut acceptum a Te, Deus, secundi meriti munus obtineat censuramque morum exemplo suae conversationis insinuet.' [Grant, we beseech Thee, Almighty Father, invest this Thy servant with the dignity of the Priesthood; do Thou renew in his heart the spirit of holiness, so that he may persevere in this office, which is next to ours in dignity, since he has received it from Thee, O God. May the example of his life lead others to moral uprightness.]"

    How can there be such a supposed contradiction between 2 magisterial statements? Please help me out here God bless.
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    Offline Arnaldo

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    Re: Sacramentum Ordinis vs the Council of Florence
    « Reply #1 on: May 05, 2020, 10:46:38 PM »
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    • The Church can change what the Church instituted.  In the sacrament of Orders, Christ left it to the Church to determine what words constitute the form of the sacrament. That is why the form of Holy Orders differs so drastically in the various approved rites.  Since the Church herself determine every word that constitutes the form, the Church can change every word of the form.  All that is required for a valid form is that the words call upon the Holy Ghost and specify what level of orders is being conferred (deacon, priest or bishop).

    The new form of Paul VI is better than the form approved by Pius XII.  It more clearly specifies the office of bishop.  
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    Offline Arnaldo

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    Re: Sacramentum Ordinis vs the Council of Florence
    « Reply #2 on: May 05, 2020, 10:54:50 PM »
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    • Here is the entire form of the new rite.

    "God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Father of mercies and God of all consolation, you dwell in heaven, yet look with compassion on all that is humble.  You know all things before they come to be; by your gracious word you have established the plan of your Church.  From the beginning you chose the descendants of Abraham to be your holy nation.  You established rulers and priests, and did not leave your sanctuary without ministers to serve you.  From the creation of the world you have been pleased to be glorified by those whom you have chosen.  So now pour out upon this chosen one the power that is from you, the governing Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by him to his holy apostles, who founded the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name.  Father, you know all hearts.  You have chosen your servant for the office of bishop.  May he be a shepherd to your holy flock, and a high priest blameless in your sight, ministering to you night and day; may he always gain the blessing of your favor and offer the gifts of your holy Church.  Through the Spirit who gives the grace of high priesthood grant him the power to forgive sins as you have commanded, to assign ministries as you have decreed, and to loose every bond by the authority which you gave to your apostles.  May he be pleasing to you by his gentleness and purity of heart, presenting a fragrant offering to you, through Jesus Christ, your Son, through whom glory and power and honor are yours with the Holy Spirit in your holy Church, now and for ever.  R.  Amen."
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    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Sacramentum Ordinis vs the Council of Florence
    « Reply #3 on: May 05, 2020, 11:48:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Arnaldo on May 05, 2020, 10:46:38 PM
    The Church can change what the Church instituted.  In the sacrament of Orders, Christ left it to the Church to determine what words constitute the form of the sacrament. That is why the form of Holy Orders differs so drastically in the various approved rites.  Since the Church herself determine every word that constitutes the form, the Church can change every word of the form.  All that is required for a valid form is that the words call upon the Holy Ghost and specify what level of orders is being conferred (deacon, priest or bishop).

    The new form of Paul VI is better than the form approved by Pius XII.  It more clearly specifies the office of bishop.  
    What about the matter though?
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    Offline Arnaldo

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    Re: Sacramentum Ordinis vs the Council of Florence
    « Reply #4 on: May 06, 2020, 01:20:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: Cryptinox on May 05, 2020, 11:48:40 PM
    What about the matter though?

    Good question. There are two issues.

    First, remember that the Church can change what the Church herself established, but it cannot change what Christ established.  In the sacrament or Orders, Christ established two things.  He established the laying on of hands as the matter, and he established that the words that the Church chooses for the form, must signify that sacramental effect; that is, the words must signify that level of orders that is being conferred.

    Now, the Council of Florence stated that the "matter" was the conveying of the traditional instruments, i.e., the conveyingof the chalice and the paten with bread, but it did not state that the matter was the laying on of hands.  The Council partially erred, since the truth is that the laying on of hands was the divinely instituted matter of the sacrament, while the conveying of the traditional instruments was the matter instituted by the Church. There were two parts to the matter. The part instituted by Christ (laying on of hands), and the part instituted by the Church (traditional instruments).  The Council only mentioned mentioned the part of the matter that was instituted by the Church, and therefore partially erred by not mentioning the matter that as instituted by Christ.

    In Sacramentum Ordinis, Pius XII stated that even if the traditional instruments was required for validity due to the will of the Church (i.e., the Council of Florence), everyone knows that the Church can change what she herself instituted.  That is true.  But what Pius XII avoided mentioning is that the Council of Florence ONLY mentioned the traditional instruments as the matter, and failed to mention what had been divinely instituted.

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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Sacramentum Ordinis vs the Council of Florence
    « Reply #5 on: May 06, 2020, 08:19:29 AM »
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    • Arnaldo, you contradict yourself multiple times.  I don't think you know what you're talking about.
    .
    Quote
    Since the Church herself determine every word that constitutes the form, the Church can change every word of the form.  
    First you said that the Church determines "every" word for the form.
    .
    Quote
    All that is required for a valid form is that the words call upon the Holy Ghost and specify what level of orders is being conferred (deacon, priest or bishop).
    Then you said there are requirements for the form.  I thought the Church can change "every" word?
    .
    Quote
    In the sacrament or Orders, Christ established two things.  He established the laying on of hands as the matter, and he established that the words that the Church chooses for the form,
    Then you say that Christ established words for the form.  I thought the Church can change "every" word?
    .
    The Church can't change what Christ established.
    Christ established words for the form of the sacrament.
    Ergo, the Church can't change "every" word of the form.
    .
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Sacramentum Ordinis vs the Council of Florence
    « Reply #6 on: May 06, 2020, 09:46:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Arnaldo on May 05, 2020, 10:46:38 PM
    All that is required for a valid form is that the words call upon the Holy Ghost and specify what level of orders is being conferred (deacon, priest or bishop).

    The new form of Paul VI is better than the form approved by Pius XII.  It more clearly specifies the office of bishop:

    Here is the entire form of the new rite.

    "God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Father of mercies and God of all consolation, you dwell in heaven, yet look with compassion on all that is humble.  You know all things before they come to be; by your gracious word you have established the plan of your Church.  From the beginning you chose the descendants of Abraham to be your holy nation.  You established rulers and priests, and did not leave your sanctuary without ministers to serve you.  From the creation of the world you have been pleased to be glorified by those whom you have chosen.  So now pour out upon this chosen one the power that is from you, the governing Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by him to his holy apostles, who founded the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name.  Father, you know all hearts.  You have chosen your servant for the office of bishop.  May he be a shepherd to your holy flock, and a high priest blameless in your sight, ministering to you night and day; may he always gain the blessing of your favor and offer the gifts of your holy Church.  Through the Spirit who gives the grace of high priesthood grant him the power to forgive sins as you have commanded, to assign ministries as you have decreed, and to loose every bond by the authority which you gave to your apostles.  May he be pleasing to you by his gentleness and purity of heart, presenting a fragrant offering to you, through Jesus Christ, your Son, through whom glory and power and honor are yours with the Holy Spirit in your holy Church, now and for ever.  R.  Amen." 


    There is no calling upon the  Holy Ghost by name in the new formula for consecration of bishops. Don't you find that odd? 
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Sacramentum Ordinis vs the Council of Florence
    « Reply #7 on: May 06, 2020, 10:07:34 AM »
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    • Quote
    Since the Church herself determine every word that constitutes the form, the Church can change every word of the form.
    If all that Paul VI did was to change the formula for the consecration of bishops as he did, but that he stated Holy Ghost instead of governing Spirit, I'd have no problem. However, the reality is that anyone who looks at all the changes the Vatican II popes made, isolated from all of the other, is thinking with blinders, living in a world of unreality. It would be more inline with reality to say that EVERYTHING that the Vatican II popes changed was unprecedented and unnecessary, and that on all the things that needed to be addressed, they took the wrong side.  No popes in history ever behaved as these "popes" have. The only way one could believe they were popes is to have no concept of what a real pope is. A pope is a holy father that one can pretty much follow blindly.
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    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Sacramentum Ordinis vs the Council of Florence
    « Reply #8 on: May 06, 2020, 10:16:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on May 06, 2020, 10:07:34 AM
    If all that Paul VI did was to change the formula for the consecration of bishops as he did, but that he stated Holy Ghost instead of governing Spirit, I'd have no problem. However, the reality is that anyone who looks at all the changes the Vatican II popes made, isolated from all of the other, is thinking with blinders, living in a world of unreality. It would be more inline with reality to say that EVERYTHING that the Vatican II popes changed was unprecedented and unnecessary, and that on all the things that needed to be addressed, they took the wrong side.  No popes in history ever behaved as these "popes" have. The only way one could believe they were popes is to have no concept of what a real pope is. A pope is a holy father that one can pretty much follow blindly.
    It is also worth noting that the new rite says that God the Father gave the Holy Ghost to God the Son
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    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: Sacramentum Ordinis vs the Council of Florence
    « Reply #9 on: May 06, 2020, 10:31:20 AM »
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    • The laying on of hands is the form. The words in all churches have only the following in common
    The invocation of the Holy Ghost and the name of the order.

    A Greek form:
    Divine Grace chooses N. as ( Bishop,priest,deacon,etc)
    Laying on of hands.
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    Offline Arnaldo

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    Re: Sacramentum Ordinis vs the Council of Florence
    « Reply #10 on: May 06, 2020, 03:58:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on May 06, 2020, 08:19:29 AM
    Arnaldo, you contradict yourself multiple times.  I don't think you know what you're talking about.
    .First you said that the Church determines "every" word for the form.
    .Then you said there are requirements for the form.  I thought the Church can change "every" word?
    .Then you say that Christ established words for the form.  I thought the Church can change "every" word?
    .
    The Church can't change what Christ established.
    Christ established words for the form of the sacrament.
    Ergo, the Church can't change "every" word of the form.
    .
    There was no contradiction.  Christ established that the words must call upon the Holy Ghost and must specify the level of orders. The Church chooses every word of the form, including which words it uses to call upon the Holy Ghost to specify the level of Orders.  For example, Pius XII used the phrase "fullness of the ministry," for the office of bishop.  It is an ambiguous phrase for the office of bishop, but some people think the form taught by Pius XII was still valid. 
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    Offline Arnaldo

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    Re: Sacramentum Ordinis vs the Council of Florence
    « Reply #11 on: May 06, 2020, 03:59:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on May 06, 2020, 09:46:00 AM
    There is no calling upon the  Holy Ghost by name in the new formula for consecration of bishops. Don't you find that odd?
    There is no calling upon the Holy Ghost in the form of Pius XII.  Do you find that odd?  And do you admit that the form of Pius XII is at least doubtful?
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    Offline Arnaldo

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    Re: Sacramentum Ordinis vs the Council of Florence
    « Reply #12 on: May 06, 2020, 04:09:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on May 06, 2020, 10:07:34 AM
     It would be more inline with reality to say that EVERYTHING that the Vatican II popes changed was unprecedented and unnecessary, and that on all the things that needed to be addressed, they took the wrong side. 
    Paul VI corrected the error in the form of ordination for the priesthood.  Pius XII relied on a corrupted text and added the word "ut" in Sacramentum Ordinis.   Paul VI corrected Pius XII's error by restoring the form by bringing it back in line with tradition. 
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Sacramentum Ordinis vs the Council of Florence
    « Reply #13 on: May 06, 2020, 08:09:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Arnaldo on May 06, 2020, 04:09:04 PM
    Paul VI corrected the error in the form of ordination for the priesthood.  Pius XII relied on a corrupted text and added the word "ut" in Sacramentum Ordinis.   Paul VI corrected Pius XII's error by restoring the form by bringing it back in line with tradition.
    Like I said :

    "the reality is that anyone who looks at all the changes the Vatican II popes made, isolated from all of the other, is thinking with blinders, living in a world of unreality. It would be more inline with reality to say that EVERYTHING that the Vatican II popes changed was unprecedented and unnecessary, and that on all the things that needed to be addressed, they took the wrong side.  No popes in history ever behaved as these "popes" have. The only way one could believe they were popes is to have no concept of what a real pope is. A pope is a holy father that one can pretty much follow blindly."

    You are living in that world of unreality. The Vatican II "popes" are not popes.
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Arnaldo

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    Re: Sacramentum Ordinis vs the Council of Florence
    « Reply #14 on: May 06, 2020, 09:03:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on May 06, 2020, 08:09:07 PM

    You are living in that world of unreality. The Vatican II "popes" are not popes.
    You have been deceived by heretics and are detached from reality.  The Vatican II Popes have all be Popes.
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