Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => The Sacred: Catholic Liturgy, Chant, Prayers => Topic started by: trickster on July 25, 2014, 07:29:38 PM
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Latin was not the first language used by Christians in the Mass. Aramaic and many of the vernacular languages of the patristic church were used. Greek, Hebrew, Arabic etc. were also used and replaced eventually with the Latin Mass.
Now, if the mass existed prior to the use of Latin (in which the use of Latin was greatly strengthened by the Council of Trent partly as a symbol of unity to counter the Protestant revolution) then it is reasonable to say that Latin is not necessary for the Mass, the mass does not need the language. What is the historical development that created Latin as an indispensable part of the mass...as if the language is a sacred element of the sacrifice...why has it become a necessity to the validity of any mass?
Many of the traditional catholic church traditions did not fall out of the sky, they were created through some very human process of adoption and sometimes appropriation of cultural symbols as Christianity progressed.
I know that much of the Latin traditions developed when the Constantine handed over many of the Roman empire buildings to the Church at the end of the empire's times. And this process borrowed greatly from the Roman Empire.. I do believe many of the church's liturgy were invented or expressed at this time in history (around 3-400 AD)
Now, just because that cultural expression has become tradition, why are we limited to both Latin symbolism and Latin language arising from the Roman empire days?
Trickster
Bruce Ferguson
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I apologize for calling you a troll. I still disagree with your post but I thought that I could be wrong and you might be in good faith and not a troll.
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I apologize for calling you a troll. I still disagree with your post but I thought that I could be wrong and you might be in good faith and not a troll.
No problem Matto. I have been involved in indigenous politics for 30 plus years and so I have a good discipline in remaining objective and respectful while having to draw a line where people are disrespectful to me. I am used to being called names and confronted in the political circles; I don't let it bother me as if I did I would become a nervous wrecked depressed person. In CatholicInfo, the majority of people on this forum website are very respectful and very objective in stating their positions and disagreement with me.
I have done some theology and one of the areas I touched upon was the patristic church and how the Catholic community evolved. I think the two components of the validity of the mass and the language used - and that did evolve into Latin - have their historic roots. I think it is a logical and honest question to unpackage the notion that Latin is integrally part of the mass.
And disagree with my post, absolutely! That is a good thing in my mind, I like conversation, of being challenged on my positions as that is the only way to learn. You learn best, not from like minded people (although they can be supportive and gentle in their correction), but from people who disagree, as the first step to understanding a disagreement is to hear what the other person is saying first....so I do welcome your disagreements...and if I am lucky we will have many and then you will have to definitely be on my buddy list
:boxer:
take care friend
Bruce
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Latin is not intrinsic to our Catholic Faith.
The short version: your argument could be called a Straw Man.
Traditional Catholics worthy of the name -- those who know why they are trad (beyond mere emotion or nostalgia) -- are not driving 1 hour or more to get to Mass on Sunday so they can hear a particular language.
That would be a silly reason to stand aloof from the rest of the Church. It would be emotional, prejudice, and/or nostalgia and nothing more.
To paraphrase a neo-SSPX quote, if the only thing Vatican II did was release a new version of the Tridentine Mass -- nothing different, just translated into English -- Archbishop Lefebvre would never have started the SSPX.
It's true that putting the Sacred Liturgy into the vernacular is one element of the anti-liturgical heresy, but it's not the reason why we don't attend our local parishes of the Conciliar Catholic Church.
http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/The-Anti-Liturgical-Heresy
It's about the FAITH ITSELF, and the MASS which is the cornerstone of our Faith.
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Latin is not intrinsic to our Catholic Faith.
The short version: your argument could be called a Straw Man.
Traditional Catholics worthy of the name -- those who know why they are trad (beyond mere emotion or nostalgia) -- are not driving 1 hour or more to get to Mass on Sunday so they can hear a particular language.
That would be a silly reason to stand aloof from the rest of the Church. It would be emotional, prejudice, and/or nostalgia and nothing more.
To paraphrase a neo-SSPX quote, if the only thing Vatican II did was release a new version of the Tridentine Mass -- nothing different, just translated into English -- Archbishop Lefebvre would never have started the SSPX.
It's true that putting the Sacred Liturgy into the vernacular is one element of the anti-liturgical heresy, but it's not the reason why we don't attend our local parishes of the Conciliar Catholic Church.
http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/The-Anti-Liturgical-Heresy
It's about the FAITH ITSELF, and the MASS which is the cornerstone of our Faith.
Thank you Matthew. You make an awesome point and that is had Vatican II release a new version of the Tridentine Mass in English...that is extremely helpful in my understanding. I have only heard the conversations based on the title of Latin Mass, so that is why I shared my understanding of the patristic church, etc.
I'll give the anti-liturgical article a read and reflect more upon it..and get some reflection back to you for your thoughts.
Bruce
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The Latin Mass makes The Church one, holy Catholic apostolic Church.
It used to be that you could go anywhere in the world and the
Mass would be the same.
Also, ask an exorcist priest: the devil hates Latin.
And one part of the Mass is Greek Kyrie Elesion.
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Latin is not intrinsic to our Catholic Faith.
The short version: your argument could be called a Straw Man.
Traditional Catholics worthy of the name -- those who know why they are trad (beyond mere emotion or nostalgia) -- are not driving 1 hour or more to get to Mass on Sunday so they can hear a particular language.
That would be a silly reason to stand aloof from the rest of the Church. It would be emotional, prejudice, and/or nostalgia and nothing more.
To paraphrase a neo-SSPX quote, if the only thing Vatican II did was release a new version of the Tridentine Mass -- nothing different, just translated into English -- Archbishop Lefebvre would never have started the SSPX.
It's true that putting the Sacred Liturgy into the vernacular is one element of the anti-liturgical heresy, but it's not the reason why we don't attend our local parishes of the Conciliar Catholic Church.
http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/The-Anti-Liturgical-Heresy
It's about the FAITH ITSELF, and the MASS which is the cornerstone of our Faith.
Hello Matthew, just finished the 11 characteristics and possible strategies (possibly implemented on an inter-generational basis) of the anti-liturgical heresy. Noting that it was written in the early 1800's I found it to be very black and white assuming that modern day work is based on the same assumptions and objectives of the protestant movement in the 1500s. I also don't know what the Abbot's context was in terms of what he was responding to and/or what motivated to write about what he percieved as an anti-liturgical movement in his time and place.
Incredibly indepth article... i will do some more research on the points as well as come up with some reflections and possibly post in on my blog and hopefully we can go through some points there.
Bruce
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People have told me that when the Novus Ordo was first introduced they thought it was essentially just a new, and official, translation of the Mass. I'm guessing these were individuals who didn't use a hand missal.
Truth be told, I prefer a conservative and rubricly correct Novus Ordo in English to the traditional Mass in Latin. Why? Because I don't have to pay attention all through Mass. My mind can wander and I can return instantly to the Mass without any thought whatsoever. But I am sane enough and intelligent enough to know that this preference comes from my propensity to sin and from deceits of Satan. If I believed God truly wanted me to go to Mass to be passively entertained (which is the essence of the vernacular Novus Ordo) I would go there. But I cannot believe that God desires passive worship. He wants us to actively unite our prayers with the prayers of the Mass and to work to be attentive and to worship Him.
While the Latin Language is not, as Matthew pointed out, intrinsic to the Catholic Faith, the Church showed great wisdom in making Latin the outward uniting force that would assist frail humans to truly worship God in both mind and spirit.
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As an Old School Catholic going back way before Vatican 2 was ever
thought of. The Mass in Latin in the Traditional Rite I am closure
to God and the Angels. I never understood Latin except what I
have to know being an Altar Boy starting in 1957 and ending at
St. Dominic's Catholic Church in Washington, DC in the Dominican
Rite in 1969 when one sentence was allowed to be said in Latin
during the still Latin quit offertory prayers. I seen to remember
it was "Bene Dici Te" and translated to "Bless these Gifts".
When the Mass was beginning to be translated into English,
I first noticed the false translations in which lead myself and
others to question the Mass when it was unthinkable before.
Such as "All Men", which is actually true, but our Lord Jesus
Christ never said this at the last Supper. Other miss translations
that seen to blurred and questioned Catholic teachings. This is
when the big falling away begun.
As Sister explained in my early years, more grace in your soul,
more you understood the Mass. And, you do not have to be a
genius in the knowledge of the Latin Language. It comes to you
by the increase of sanctifying grace. And this is what the novus
ordo church has forgotten, and they are so far from Catholic
teachings.
Even among the Dominican Fathers, there were dissension on
the changes. The Liberal would not allow any more conservatives
to join their order, and they all died off leaving a very liberal
and progressive order that is far from the intentions of Saint
Dominic.
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The Latin Mass makes The Church one, holy Catholic apostolic Church.
It used to be that you could go anywhere in the world and the
Mass would be the same.
Also, ask an exorcist priest: the devil hates Latin.
And one part of the Mass is Greek Kyrie Elesion.
I agree with you Viva Cristo Rey. I have come across a directive written by Saint Pope John XXIII prior to the opening up of Vatican II where he did not allow the mass to be said in anything other than Latin. Not only that, he wrote in very clear support of strengthening the teaching and use of the Latin language in Catholic institutions and priestly/religious training of the day. He also quoted Pope Pius XII in the latter's statement about the idea that the use of Latin was not so much about culture but about religion.
My understanding of the facts are the same as yours. I don't know about the exorcist notion that the devil hates Latin...but am open to any resources or references you have would ground that statement.
Having said that, I am getting some very clear indications from both Catholic Answers (which I posted the question to) and this forum that Latin is not intrinsic to the Mass, but there is a good rationale for its' use. Some claim a divine leadership in the choice of Latin in our liturgy. That claim though is a matter of opinion and understanding.
I am not sure that there were any use of infallibility to back up the idea that God wanted us to use Latin in the Mass. That is my only point. It does not sound too controversial to Traditional Catholics.
Bruce
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tkgs - Lay hand missiles are very young compared to the age of the tridentine/traditional mass. You likely have misconceptions about how one can assist at mass.
Trickster - Reflect on Canon 7 on the sacrifice of the mass from the council of trent 1562 - if anyone says that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs which the catholic church uses in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety rather than stimulants to piety, let him be anathama."
If the vernacular is something that God sees fitting for our time, then the church would have actually been able to give it to us. Instead, our traditions were gutted across the board by the cowardly(Pius XII)/the communist "brother joseph"(John XXIII)/the son of a maranno jew false convert(Paul VI/whose mother was buried a mason), which resulted in the NO/the disaster we have today.
"By their fruits you shall know them."
It is clear with only a little bit of reflection, that what has occurred is not of God.
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People have told me that when the Novus Ordo was first introduced they thought it was essentially just a new, and official, translation of the Mass. I'm guessing these were individuals who didn't use a hand missal.
Truth be told, I prefer a conservative and rubricly correct Novus Ordo in English to the traditional Mass in Latin. Why? Because I don't have to pay attention all through Mass. My mind can wander and I can return instantly to the Mass without any thought whatsoever. But I am sane enough and intelligent enough to know that this preference comes from my propensity to sin and from deceits of Satan. If I believed God truly wanted me to go to Mass to be passively entertained (which is the essence of the vernacular Novus Ordo) I would go there. But I cannot believe that God desires passive worship. He wants us to actively unite our prayers with the prayers of the Mass and to work to be attentive and to worship Him.
While the Latin Language is not, as Matthew pointed out, intrinsic to the Catholic Faith, the Church showed great wisdom in making Latin the outward uniting force that would assist frail humans to truly worship God in both mind and spirit.
TKGS, you hit on some interesting points. I think there is a general understanding that the use of Latin is not intrinsic to the Mass. There seems to be general agreement with Traditional Catholics here and Conservative catholics on Catholic Answers who choose the Extraordinary form of the Mass (Latin).
BUt then you go on to say that participation in the Novus Ordo mass is a mindless occupation and that is where I have a different take. English, as an example, helps me focus more as I understand. We in the Novus Ordo are encouraged to come to Mass prior to reflect on what the mass will be about and understand it within the overall three year liturgical calendar. We are encouraged to prayerfully read the scriptures, Benedict was particularly strong on bringing that back. There has been an increase practice of Eucharistic Adoration in the last 20 or so years, so mindless attendance of mass is a bit of an unfair characteristic of the N.O.
I think there is a danger in assuming that "the other" do this or that in their relationship to God and Our Lord, Our Lady and the Saints/Angels. Making those assumptions about the discipline and focus of one another is not within our rights to do. However, those who are political (on all sides of the issue) about whether the pre-councilar church or the novus ordo are right are wrong or whether the the people in either side of the issue are sincerely focused ; it is not for us to judge the authenticity of their relationship on the part of ALL sincere people on all sides within our church. That is a point of being a Christian, that of having the charity within us to never dismiss anyone's interior relationship with God.i
For some, the use of venacular is more spiritually nourishing (and yes I do like folk masses and the use of contemporary instruments and music styles) as they sound good, feel good are facilitative to the purposes of the mass are spiritually nourishing for me and I know my relationship to my Lord...but I do not doubt the sincerity of those who, for whatever reason including conscience) choose to not join with us in the Novus Ordo.
So having said all that, Latin to a degree and in itself is not intrinsic, the problem is not so much surficial (ie. what language is used) but the systemic dismanteling and differences of the authentic Traditional Mass prior to the changes .... and that is where I find the focus of TC;s. So I am moving deeper into what those changes are... I really believe the differences between us are not what language is used, or how it encourages focus and authenticity that we are invited to participate in at the mass, but the deeper changes that formed the opposition and resistance of the SSPX and like minded movements/groups/organizations.
Towards that end, I would appreciate your thinking and examples.
Bruce
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I should have used the word "diplomat" when referring to Pacelli(everybody always refers to him as weak or cowardly, and it rubs off). He was not really a coward. He did what he did for a reason. He was a liberal.
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Trickster is a troll.
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As an Old School Catholic going back way before Vatican 2 was ever
thought of. The Mass in Latin in the Traditional Rite I am closure
to God and the Angels. I never understood Latin except what I
have to know being an Altar Boy starting in 1957 and ending at
St. Dominic's Catholic Church in Washington, DC in the Dominican
Rite in 1969 when one sentence was allowed to be said in Latin
during the still Latin quit offertory prayers. I seen to remember
it was "Bene Dici Te" and translated to "Bless these Gifts".
When the Mass was beginning to be translated into English,
I first noticed the false translations in which lead myself and
others to question the Mass when it was unthinkable before.
Such as "All Men", which is actually true, but our Lord Jesus
Christ never said this at the last Supper. Other miss translations
that seen to blurred and questioned Catholic teachings. This is
when the big falling away begun.
As Sister explained in my early years, more grace in your soul,
more you understood the Mass. And, you do not have to be a
genius in the knowledge of the Latin Language. It comes to you
by the increase of sanctifying grace. And this is what the novus
ordo church has forgotten, and they are so far from Catholic
teachings.
Even among the Dominican Fathers, there were dissension on
the changes. The Liberal would not allow any more conservatives
to join their order, and they all died off leaving a very liberal
and progressive order that is far from the intentions of Saint
Dominic.
Hello RomanCatholic1953. It sounds like you are about 6 years older than me given that you became an alter boy in 1957, which was the year I was born. I share a lot of your experiences and memories too. Back in the day, we were required to attend the parish in our geographical district, and even the the Archdiocese of Vancouver has had a long and sustained reputation of being conservative, I had the honor of being raised in a parish that anticipated the changes initiated by Vatican II. Our parish architecturally was built in a manner where the alter was placed in the middle of the sanctuary. Our Blessed Sacrament was to the side of the church and we were introduced to the folk mass at a very young age. I remember the changes to recieving Holy Communion which to this kid was exciting and new. I also remember the restrictiions that you talked about in the late 60s. I never understood why we had to deny Latin. I remember this solitary old nun who continued to wear her old habit and she seemed to be such a lonely figure... now a days, i think about how cruel the decision to deny people like those the mass they grew up with for 70-80 years. God forgive us for that, as I am sure that the old sister has already done.
I agree with you on the translation points, although I don't pretend to know a whole lot at this point about what translation changes were made,etc. I do know that we tried to balance the sacrificial meaning of the church (the Good FridaY) with the Holy Thursday notion of the Last Supper and community... I don't see this as necessarily wrong, but I think TC's have a good point in arguing that it de-emphasised the sacrifice.....and we also celebrate I hope the rest of the story which was the day Jesus went to all the lost souls and then rose on Suinday. I am not sure, but my sense is that we ought to celebrate from an Easter Sunday perspective which equally values what Jesus showed us from Holy Thursday onwards to Sunday.
I know that Pope Benedict did a lot (being the scholar he is) to address those translation changes upsetting a lot of progressive Catholics today, but I think most of us grass root catholics understood things as a rebalancing and an openess to SSPX and other traditional peoples.
You are right I think about the politics too in the Church and that was one of a liberal phase where the kinds of things that happened to the Dominican Fathers happened elsewhere, but I think today in 2014 the pendulum has swung back to the right...so for us many liberals and progressives today, it is difficult for them to find a religious community to express their vocation...so there's a bit more to the story.
I am not sure how many years have passed since you made the decision it seems to be Traditional Catholic, but there have been many changes to the Novus Ordo bringin us back to the at least the center.
Anyways, I look forward to your continued thinking on this and the sharing that you will no doubt do
Bruce
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tkgs - Lay hand missiles are very young compared to the age of the tridentine/traditional mass. You likely have misconceptions about how one can assist at mass.
Trickster - Reflect on Canon 7 on the sacrifice of the mass from the council of trent 1562 - if anyone says that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs which the catholic church uses in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety rather than stimulants to piety, let him be anathama."
If the vernacular is something that God sees fitting for our time, then the church would have actually been able to give it to us. Instead, our traditions were gutted across the board by the cowardly(Pius XII)/the communist "brother joseph"(John XXIII)/the son of a maranno jew false convert(Paul VI/whose mother was buried a mason), which resulted in the NO/the disaster we have today.
"By their fruits you shall know them."
It is clear with only a little bit of reflection, that what has occurred is not of God.
+PG+ (interesting handle by the way :cheers: Canon 7....thank you, I will certainly do that. My original point in reference to the use of Latin was not meant to discredit the use, it was more of a cultural and historical reflection of the choosing and evolution of the use of Latin in the mass. Do you know if Canon 7 continues to be used in Novus Ordo Canon Law? In fact, you got me curious....in your knowledge, do you know if there are Canon Law differences between TC and NO? Now that's a whole new subject.
I have to reserve my thoughts in order to better reflect upon your statement saying in effect that the use of Latin is ordained by God, which seems to be the segway in which you discredit the work and leadership of all the popes including Pius XII (which surprised me as it is not a common statement on the CathInfo forum)...but we all are independent thinkers I hope.
Take care
Bruce
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Trickster is a troll.
A lot of people agree with you + PG + :baby:..... I think though if people give me an honest reading, they may have a different view..... who knows really. I have no control over what other people think of me, in fact its none of my business if they think I am trolling.
I am meeting a lot of great TC people who are very thoughtful in their responses and very objective and responsible in disagreeing with me as well. I have been pretty transparent and honest...and so I'm good with the criticism. I'm sure there will be much more of where that comes from :)
Cheerz friend
Bruce Ferguson
Trickster
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tkgs - Lay hand missiles are very young compared to the age of the tridentine/traditional mass. You likely have misconceptions about how one can assist at mass.
+ PG +, You have a way of rubbing people the wrong way. Nothing I said can be construed to mean what you seem to imply above. What I said was that when the Novus Ordo came to being in 1970--when hand missals were very much readily available--many people have told me personally that they had thought it merely an official translation of the Mass.
You have many misconceptions because it seems that you frequently read into what others write negative and incorrect meanings. What I haven't figured out is whether you do so with malice or are just ignorant.
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BUt then you go on to say that participation in the Novus Ordo mass is a mindless occupation and that is where I have a different take. English, as an example, helps me focus more as I understand. We in the Novus Ordo are encouraged to come to Mass prior to reflect on what the mass will be about and understand it within the overall three year liturgical calendar. We are encouraged to prayerfully read the scriptures, Benedict was particularly strong on bringing that back. There has been an increase practice of Eucharistic Adoration in the last 20 or so years, so mindless attendance of mass is a bit of an unfair characteristic of the N.O.
While what you say here is what all Catholics are encouraged to do before assisting at Mass, I will unequivocally declare that the only people I have ever seen do so are those who assist at the traditional Mass. Before escaping the Novus Ordo, I attended that service in many different locations around the United States, Germany and Italy. If you or anyone you know actually prepare yourselves prior to Mass by any sort of reflection (as you say should be done), you are an exception.
The vernacular allows you to "participate" because you really haven't read and studied the readings or the prayers.
For once, + PG + may be correct about whether or not you are nothing more than a troll and not asking questions in good faith.
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tkgs - Lay hand missiles are very young compared to the age of the tridentine/traditional mass. You likely have misconceptions about how one can assist at mass.
+ PG +, You have a way of rubbing people the wrong way. Nothing I said can be construed to mean what you seem to imply above. What I said was that when the Novus Ordo came to being in 1970--when hand missals were very much readily available--many people have told me personally that they had thought it merely an official translation of the Mass.
You have many misconceptions because it seems that you frequently read into what others write negative and incorrect meanings. What I haven't figured out is whether you do so with malice or are just ignorant.
Hello + PG +... guess what .. I think you are mistaken me for TKGS. TKGS was the one commenting on the missals, I didn't say a word about them....so just to set the record straight (and re-read the thread)..I was not part of that conversation...easy mistake though..
Bruce
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tkgs - Lay hand missiles are very young compared to the age of the tridentine/traditional mass. You likely have misconceptions about how one can assist at mass.
+ PG +, You have a way of rubbing people the wrong way. Nothing I said can be construed to mean what you seem to imply above. What I said was that when the Novus Ordo came to being in 1970--when hand missals were very much readily available--many people have told me personally that they had thought it merely an official translation of the Mass.
You have many misconceptions because it seems that you frequently read into what others write negative and incorrect meanings. What I haven't figured out is whether you do so with malice or are just ignorant.
Eeks! I apologize to you TKGS and + PG + because I realized after I wrote to PG that this was a conversation between you and PG....geesh.. Sometimes the threads get a bit confusing...
cheerz
Bruce
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BUt then you go on to say that participation in the Novus Ordo mass is a mindless occupation and that is where I have a different take. English, as an example, helps me focus more as I understand. We in the Novus Ordo are encouraged to come to Mass prior to reflect on what the mass will be about and understand it within the overall three year liturgical calendar. We are encouraged to prayerfully read the scriptures, Benedict was particularly strong on bringing that back. There has been an increase practice of Eucharistic Adoration in the last 20 or so years, so mindless attendance of mass is a bit of an unfair characteristic of the N.O.
While what you say here is what all Catholics are encouraged to do before assisting at Mass, I will unequivocally declare that the only people I have ever seen do so are those who assist at the traditional Mass. Before escaping the Novus Ordo, I attended that service in many different locations around the United States, Germany and Italy. If you or anyone you know actually prepare yourselves prior to Mass by any sort of reflection (as you say should be done), you are an exception.
The vernacular allows you to "participate" because you really haven't read and studied the readings or the prayers.
For once, + PG + may be correct about whether or not you are nothing more than a troll and not asking questions in good faith.
Very good point TKGS. There are a great many authentic and sincere Catholics who do prepare for the Mass, etc. This consciousness in the "novus ordo" is increasing and there are more of us incorporating this practice of getting to mass 15 before it starts, etc. You are right though in that we are still probably a minority...many Catholics still are caught up in the world of 24/7 and fitting mass in as just another task for the day.. it is truly sad.
I am happy that I have provide common ground for you and + PG + lol.
Bruce Ferguson
Trickster
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Bruce - here is some food for thought. Pope St. Victor(199 AD) was the first in Rome to celebrate the mysteries in latin. This is according to St. Jerome.
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Bruce - here is some food for thought. Pope St. Victor(199 AD) was the first in Rome to celebrate the mysteries in latin. This is according to St. Jerome.
I did not know that. So Latin was used almost 100-150 years before it became the "state religion" (when Constantine made that happen). That would suggest that the use of Latin is quite early and would of been said by the community. Latin, of course, would of been the venacular for many of the Roman towns I would imagine.
BUt knowing Pope Victor was the first to use it give a benchmark...awesome...thank you PG.
Bruce
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This is what St Justin had to say about the liturgy around the year 150.
Chapter 65. Administration of the sacraments
But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to γένοιτο [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.
Chapter 66. Of the Eucharist
And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.
Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm
The tradition of the liturgy is a living tradition that goes back to the time of the apostles.
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This is what St Justin had to say about the liturgy around the year 150.
Chapter 65. Administration of the sacraments
But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to γένοιτο [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.
Chapter 66. Of the Eucharist
And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.
Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm
The tradition of the liturgy is a living tradition that goes back to the time of the apostles.
Thank you Poche. Agreed, the liturgy has a long history, and perhaps a long history prior to the adoption of Latin as the universal language of the church. That was kind of my point before I have learned a lot about the wisdom of both Traditional catholics and conservative Catholics within our "novus ordo" church. I think one of the saddest thing that happened to us since Vatican II, is that we did not honor the docuмent that said we need to preserve Latin while making use of sensible applications of the venacular...so I support both the Latin and venacular in the lliturgy. I think we have done that though our ordinary (which I prefer) and extraordinary formats.
I also appreciate you pointing me in the direction of St. Jerome's writing; we had an overview of him as one of the church fathers, but I did not get into the works in detail.
Take care Poche
Bruce Ferguson
Trickster