tkgs - Lay hand missiles are very young compared to the age of the tridentine/traditional mass.  You likely have misconceptions about how one can assist at mass.  

Trickster - Reflect on Canon 7 on the sacrifice of the mass from the council of trent 1562 - if anyone says that the ceremonies, vestments, and outward signs which the catholic church uses in the celebration of masses, are incentives to impiety rather than stimulants to piety, let him be anathama."  

If the vernacular is something that God sees fitting for our time, then the church would have actually been able to give it to us.  Instead, our traditions were gutted across the board by the cowardly(Pius XII)/the communist "brother joseph"(John XXIII)/the son of a maranno jew false convert(Paul VI/whose mother was buried a mason), which resulted in the NO/the disaster we have today.

"By their fruits you shall know them."

It is clear with only a little bit of reflection, that what has occurred is not of God.  

 

tkgs - Lay hand missiles are very young compared to the age of the tridentine/traditional mass.  You likely have misconceptions about how one can assist at mass.  

Quote from: + PG +

tkgs - Lay hand missiles are very young compared to the age of the tridentine/traditional mass.  You likely have misconceptions about how one can assist at mass.  

+ PG +, You have a way of rubbing people the wrong way.  Nothing I said can be construed to mean what you seem to imply above.  What I said was that when the Novus Ordo came to being in 1970--when hand missals were very much readily available--many people have told me personally that they had thought it merely an official translation of the Mass.  

You have many misconceptions because it seems that you frequently read into what others write negative and incorrect meanings.  What I haven't figured out is whether you do so with malice or are just ignorant.

Quote from: trickster

BUt then you go on to say that participation in the Novus Ordo mass is a mindless occupation and that is where I have a different take.  English, as an example, helps me focus more as I understand. We in the Novus Ordo are encouraged to come to Mass prior to reflect on what the mass will be about and understand it within the overall three year liturgical calendar.   We are encouraged to prayerfully read the scriptures, Benedict was particularly strong on bringing that back.  There has been an increase practice of Eucharistic Adoration in the last 20 or so years, so mindless attendance of mass is a bit of an unfair characteristic of the N.O.

While what you say here is what all Catholics are encouraged to do before assisting at Mass, I will unequivocally declare that the only people I have ever seen do so are those who assist at the traditional Mass.  Before escaping the Novus Ordo, I attended that service in many different locations around the United States, Germany and Italy.  If you or anyone you know actually prepare yourselves prior to Mass by any sort of reflection (as you say should be done), you are an exception.

The vernacular allows you to "participate" because you really haven't read and studied the readings or the prayers.  

For once, + PG + may be correct about whether or not you are nothing more than a troll and not asking questions in good faith.

Bruce - here is some food for thought.  Pope St. Victor(199 AD) was the first in Rome to celebrate the mysteries in latin.  This is according to St. Jerome.

This is what St Justin had to say about the liturgy around the year 150.
Chapter 65. Administration of the sacraments
But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to γένοιτο [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.

Chapter 66. Of the Eucharist
And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

The tradition of the liturgy is a living tradition that goes back to the time of the apostles.